#163 - Becoming an Intentional Engineer and Tech Leader - Jeff Perry

[00:01:56] Episode Introduction

Henry Suryawirawan: Hello again, my friends and my listeners. You’re listening to the Tech Lead Journal podcast, a podcast on technical leadership and excellence. If you haven’t, please subscribe on your favorite podcast app. And you can also enjoy Tech Lead Journal’s bite-sized contents on LinkedIn, X, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok.

Are you tired of feeling uninspired and disengaged in your engineering career? If so, then this episode is for you. My guest for today’s episode is Jeff Perry, and he is back for a second episode with his latest book, “The Intentional Engineer”.

In this episode, Jeff uncovers the keys to building a meaningful, fulfilling career by cultivating more intentionality. We dive into the ‘quiet quitting’ phenomenon happening worldwide, and Jeff shares his personal story of disengagement during a particular stage in his career.

Learn Jeff’s Intentional Engineer model to assess your current situation and start becoming more intentional toward your lives and career. You will also learn the importance of identifying your core values, the power of mindsets, getting your career clarity, finding your genius zones, and a few core skills you should learn for living more intentionally.

I hope you enjoy listening to this episode and getting inspired to make changes toward a more meaningful and fulfilling career. Please share this with your colleagues, friends, and communities, and leave a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. So let’s now go to my conversation with Jeff.

[00:03:31] Writing “The Intentional Engineer”

Henry Suryawirawan: Jeff, since we last talked, so I know that you wrote a book. So maybe tell us a little bit more what you were up to these days.

Jeff Perry: Yeah, so writing a book is a whole process and I did it maybe in an atypical fashion. I had some mentors and things that I was working with earlier this summer. So when we’re talking here, this is November of 2023. But in the summer earlier this year, with mentors I was talking to. And I’ve been doing a lot of this work and coaching and training and things for engineers and technology professionals for years now. These mentors were like, when are you gonna write a book? And it finally clicked. And I also had an event that I was going to and to be speaking at in a few months, and I sort of just caught in my mind like, hey, how cool would it be to go speak at that event, which is about three months away and have my book there that I could share with people. And there’s just a lot of energy behind that.

And so I sprinted to get this done and from idea to publish was about three months to get this book done. And so that, that was a lot to get that done, but it was also very fulfilling. Something that I’ve been thinking about and wondering about, like, hey, I wanted to be an author for a long time and I’ve considered myself an author, and then I’ve written dozens and dozens, hundreds of articles and newsletters and things over the years. And finally compiling a lot of that into a book is a labor of love, and I hope that people really enjoy it.

Wow, three months to write the whole book. I think that’s really a great thing that you achieved. I always wonder when I will write a book as well, so maybe one day I’ll try to write one. But today, yeah, we are gonna talk about your new book, right? So “The Intentional Engineer”. So the title itself sounds interesting for me. In the first place, what kind of problems do you think that you’re trying to solve by writing this book?

Jeff Perry: Yeah, so in my work with a lot of engineers and technology professionals, there’s just so many people who have this sense of like, hey, shouldn’t there be a little bit more to this? And not more like, hey, I should be getting more money and more prestige and all that. But like more fulfillment and more alignment with where their career is headed and the things that they care about in their lives. And I’ve found that so many people, when they’ve kind of sensed that, they found themselves just to be sort of in kind of survival mode or just opportunistic. Like, . different roles or opportunities came their way over the years and they just took that and ran with it and it gets them to a point. And then they’re like, hey, what do I really want instead of letting other people dictate what they want for me?

And that’s the whole idea of being intentional, instead of being reactive or unintentional and just letting your life come to you, we have this opportunity to choose what we want to do and who we want to become, which I think is what’s most important. Like, it’s the process of not achieving certain things, but becoming who we’re meant to become over the course of our lives and careers. And it’s a choice, right? And so this idea to be intentional, is a choice and a choice that all of us get to make. You can make it once, but you can make it every day, every week, every year of our lives to be intentional again and again and again, over and over.

And I hope that this book infuses some of that. I hope people level up the way that they think about all these things. And then obviously to take action with intention to become who they want to become and unleash some of their potential that might right now be laying a little bit dormant.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, I think in the past few years, if we have learned from the journey, right? From the pandemic and the uncertainties, you know, massive layoffs happening everywhere. I think people start to questioning themselves, right? What is the true thing that you are achieving in life and work?

[00:08:33] Jeff’s Story of Becoming Intentional

Henry Suryawirawan: And especially like you mentioned, right? Sometimes we didn’t think about it until a certain major event happening. Like new opportunity comes or like, for example, layoff happening. You have your own story as well that you wrote in the book. Maybe if you can share a little bit about your own story.

Jeff Perry: Yeah, so the interesting thing about my story that kind of led me to eventually doing what I’m doing now in the coaching and the training work that I get to do is that a lot of things are really good. And that’s the interesting thing is like sometimes you don’t necessarily need to be laid off and have some cataclysmic event or something to sort of jar you. But a lot of things were good. I was in a great company, I was getting paid well, I had growth opportunities, I’d done a number of different things. There were some changes that were made that maybe weren’t in line with what I really wanted to do next.

And so that got me to reflect back and look at, hey, what do I really want to do, if this isn’t what I wanna do? And I only could really identify that at that time. Like, this isn’t really yet, but I don’t even know what that was yet. And so this journey of kind of finding the power of intentionality was just kind of beginning for me.

But I did know as I had opportunities during that time to do some training, coaching internally that I loved the really human element of things rather than just focusing on the technologies themselves, but the people behind the technology and unleashing some of that potential. And so my family life was good. I was comfortable. I was getting paid well and all that stuff, but . I still kind of felt lost and so we almost need to sometimes give our permission to say, hey, it’s okay, even when things are going well on paper to not feel like things are quite right for us.

And that changes over time and different stages of our lives. But it may be a really big catalyst moment for you. Or you might just reflect and be like, and ask yourself the questions, am I really doing and becoming who I want to be. And if the answer’s no, then that opens up a whole world of possibility. Like, okay, then what? And that can be scary, or we can get excited about that, and think about, okay, let’s go design the future of us.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, I think your own story, right, could relate to so many people as well. So just like what you said, right? It doesn’t have to take a major event to start questioning, you know, about life, about career, in general, right? But also when you’re feeling good, right? You seem like you know, getting paid well, you know, family life, no issue. Career wise, you’re also progressing. But I think as you also grow in age sometimes, as you get older, right, you start questioning like, is that it, right? Is there something else that I would like to do, right? Is there something more meaningful, I guess, when people grow in their age.

[00:11:17] Quiet Quitting Phenomenon

Henry Suryawirawan: So I think you also mentioned the statistics quoted by Gallup in the Global Workforce report. I read it. I think it’s also intriguing, right? Like more than half, like 55% people are kind of like quiet quitting, right? Even though they have a job. And many of them also are disengaged. So tell us more about these statistics, right? What do you find interesting with that?

Jeff Perry: Yeah. Gallup does this world survey every year. And so it splits it up over the worldwide data as well as by country or region. And so I’m just opening up the book to grab myself, only 23% of people worldwide feel like they’re thriving at work. That’s a sad number to me, right? It’s not even a quarter of people feel like they’re really thriving. And it’s a little bit higher in the US where I’m at, I think it’s like just over 30%, but it’s still not a whole lot. And 59% are quiet quitting and 18% are actively disengaged, right? So it’s a whole bunch of people who are unhappy with some aspect of their work.

But I think about the opportunity there for, I mean, numbers that low, there’s a huge opportunity to increase that. And what does increasing those numbers mean? First of all, from an individual, like how cool would that be for me as an individual or any one of our listeners to move from I’m actively disengaged to thriving? And what that means for them and their family, and the people around them, and the kind of person they’ll become when they’re in that space, right? So that’s a cool thing.

Second of all, I believe that engineers and technology professionals have a huge opportunity to solve some of the biggest problems on the planet. And they are going to be more innovative, productive, collaborative, and all those things when they are more engaged and when they’re in the thriving state. When they’re actively disengaged, they’re certainly not really going to be doing their best work, right? So companies, organizations have a financial incentive to improve these numbers, as well as the employees, the individuals taking responsibility for how can I design my life and career in a way that I can find an opportunity that gets me into that thriving space?

And that’s a co-creative experience, right? Cause I don’t wanna pretend like, hey, if you just go make a career change, like suddenly grass is gonna be greener on the other side, and, uh, if you’re not liking where you’re at right now. And at the same time, the organizations who are employing people have a responsibility to create environments and cultures where people can thrive as well. And it’s developing people, helping them get in touch with the things that are most important to them. And finding ways to align that with the work that they get to do. This is a co-creative experience. And that’s part the work that I get to do now is help the individuals and the organizations help combine that in a way to move from kind of surviving to thriving.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, I think being engaged in work is really important to me, right? Because we spend a lot of hours in our day, in our weeks to actually do our work, right? So if we are actively disengaged, I think that will kind of like ripple into all aspects of our life as well. Our mood, you know, maybe our relationship with family and friends. So I think really, really crucial that we try to be more engaged in our work, right?

[00:14:41] Being Intentional

Henry Suryawirawan: And sometimes we can find new jobs, but it is also very opportunistic and there’s a lot of probability that it may not work as well. So I think being intentional here, which we are going to discuss, what does it mean actually to you when you say being more intentional?

Jeff Perry: Yeah, so I, I shared it a little bit earlier that being intentional is a choice. And for me, another way to use that, or a few other words that we can talk about being intentional is deliberate, purpose driven. And all of that, when we’re driven by our intention of who we want to become and the things that are most important to us, it drives our actions, right? To create the outcomes that we’re trying to create. And so, it’s an opportunity to decide who you want to become and decide are you willing to do what it takes to make that happen. That’s what it means to me to be intentional.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah. So I think, first you have to kind of like find the purpose, kind of like be deliberate. And also importantly, the take action part, right? Because I believe all of us will have ideas, we’ll have our own dreams. But not many people probably take the step to actually do the actions, which in your book, you advocate people to do some kind of activities, right? So like being more intentional in terms of actions, and maybe do journaling. So maybe it’s time for you to probably mention a little bit about your workbook companion, right? That you create as well along with the book.

Jeff Perry: Yeah, so with the book that people can get on Amazon or find more information at theintentionalengineer.com. I also created a companion workbook that people can use and this is a lot bigger. It’s like, you know, full pages. You can buy on Amazon or if you purchase the book, you can get a copy of the workbook for free, the digital copy. And the whole reason I did that is a lot of times when I am reading books, I focus first on kind of consuming the book, whether I’m listening to the book or just kind of reading through the book, and I get through the book and sometimes have completion compulsion, I just wanna get through the book. But I don’t usually take the time to actually step back and be like, hey, there are all these activities and questions and reflections and things to do in there. And I have a whole lot of those. At the end of every chapter, I have a take intentional action section here.

But I know that there’s probably a whole lot of people that won’t do that just when they read the book. And so that’s the whole point of the workbook is to give people the space. And so I open up all the questions and the activities that are in the book and give you space to go reflect on the questions that are asked or reflect on or record. What happened is you took the recommended actions and or make plans to do so, whatever that is, so that you can take the ideas and put them into practice as you do so. So all that can be found at theintentionalengineer.com.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, I find this kind of book actually works best if you do the activities as well, right? Not just consuming. I personally also like tend to consume more rather than doing the activity. But I’ve found that these kind of books actually work best if you do the activities and, you know, doing reflection, pondering, and even asking questions for some of those activities, because the feedback that you get from people will be much more useful as well.

[00:17:50] Intentional Engineer Model

Henry Suryawirawan: So yeah, in your book you have this intentional engineer model. I find that really interesting. If you can walk that through to people so that they understand where they are at at the moment.

Jeff Perry: Yeah. So this model helps us understand, like you said, where we’re at in our life and career, and you think about a ladder kind of moving up in different rungs. But instead of a corporate ladder, like, hey, I’m moving up in the different titles and things, it’s moving up in kind of our level of engagement and satisfaction with our life and how that aligns with our work.

So think about at the very bottom, on the career side, people are usually unemployed. Like there is no career that’s happening at the moment, so they’re feeling overlooked, right? So the status is unemployed, but they’re feeling overlooked. And that typically, leads to a lot of stress and anxiety around that.

We move up and people are employed, but they’re kind of in a survival mode. So I call it surviving. Usually not making a whole lot of money, but just enough to survive. And so they’re in a state of what I call obligatory state, where they’re doing what they need to, to take care of the basic needs of life. But not much more is going on beyond that.

And then kind of the third level is where I find a whole lot of people at in the engineering technology space. They’re in opportunistic mode and they’re being paid well, but they’re disengaged. And this is where I was when I kind of tell my story of where I was lost. And where we were just talking about some of the stats around being disengaged. A whole lot of people, a good majority of people in my experience are in this space, even if they are getting paid well. Cause money doesn’t create satisfaction. You know, we all wanna be paid fairly and money can provide opportunities to do other things. But money in itself doesn’t create satisfaction. And so the tipping point over here is to move from being opportunistic to being intentional, right?

And this leads us into a state, this is kinda the fourth level being intentional of experiencing purposeful growth. So that purpose-driven growth and opportunity, perhaps financially, it often can be when we kind of step into our best selves, but also into the other areas of our life that we most care about.

And that can lead us to kind of the fifth level here, is being more intentional and digging into our life’s work and being more impactful. So it goes beyond just us, me, as an individual, and how can I impact others as a leader. In an organization as a thought leader, as a mentor. Impactful in my community and the other things and causes that I care about. Cause it goes beyond just me and just the career and the actions and things that I’m taking here. But what does that mean globally and the type of impact that I want to have in the world and on my community and on my family, right?

And so no matter where you’re at, right? If you’re all the way down at the bottom kind of, hey, I’m unemployed, I don’t have a job right now, I can’t even think about what’s next until I get something. Okay, that’s fine. Let’s just move up and get you at least something we can take care of the basics. And then you have that mental space to move to what’s next. We still wanna be driven with some of that intentionality all the way through and thinking about who we want to become. But sometimes we need to get to a base state before we can take the next step, and that’s totally fine. Embrace the reality of where we currently are and say, how can I just take another step forward towards becoming who I want to be?

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, I find this model really interesting to make sense of where we are at. Although like what you said, right, many people may be in this position of being paid but disengaged, right? Because they’re not doing the career that aligns with who they are.

[00:21:25] Going Beyond The Tipping Point

Henry Suryawirawan: And I think the tipping point is what you mentioned being more intentional and so that you can get purposeful growth. But I think the tipping point normally also involves a lot of kind of like uncertainties and risks, right? Which many people would not have made the step, because this is like the tipping point, right?

So maybe a little bit of advice here, because people being paid well although they disengage means they’re safe, right? They kind of like have a job. They can, you know, do other activities they like. But sometimes the risk is something that they don’t want to take. So tell us maybe some advice about how to make the step to actually go past this tipping point.

Jeff Perry: Yeah, right. So I mean, you mentioned a few words there, the risk and the uncertainty. And usually when we think of words like that, what comes up is a whole lot of fear. I quote this quote in the book, but from a psychologist by the name of Virginia Satir. And I love it, and I think about this all the time, is that “many people prefer the certainty of misery to the misery of uncertainty”. When I think about making a change from what I know right now, okay, if I’m paid and disengaged, I’m not enjoying where I’m at. I’m not feeling like I’m living my best. You know, being my best self or growing purposefully and all those things. But the idea of changing to something else, I don’t know how that’s gonna work out. I know what this is like right now and I’m comfortable enough. Why would I change when I don’t know what that’s gonna look like? Well, that sounds like digging into that certainty of misery.

And that change doesn’t necessarily need to mean a change in your job role or position, right? That change could be a change in you. Your mindset, how you approach all of that and the relationships at work and in your personal life. Which is also feels uncomfortable and uncertain when we try and become something different. But something needs to change to step into that intentionality instead of just saying, I’m just gonna stick with what I know this is who I am. Why would I change? And so, yeah, it’s risky, right?

I don’t quote this, but I love the whole concept from Brené Brown in her Daring Greatly book. She takes that daring greatly idea from a quote, I think from Theodore Roosevelt if I’m not mistaken. You know, this idea of like the man in the arena. Like it’s the man in the arena who’s trying new things, who’s in the fight, that has the courage that counts. Not someone who’s just a spectator, right? So are you gonna be a spectator of your life or are you gonna step into the arena, try something new and step up to what your potential is? Cause if we just kind of sit back and rest on our laurels, then we’re probably diminishing who we can become.

And that’s a sad thing in my mind. I think all of us are, you know, think about the ideas of like energy. Like we are full of potential energy, right? We’re full of fuel that is ready to be unleashed for goodness in the world. And I don’t want any of us to leave without having spent that in the ways that we can.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah. Thanks for clarifying that being intentional doesn’t mean you have to change your whole career, right? Or do some things that totally different than what you do. It could be a small step, small experiments, right? The key here is being in alignment with what you want and being more intentional, right? And I think, uh, taking risks and, you know, embracing uncertainty is something that we have to do anyway if we wanna grow, right? Just like when we were kids, we learn a lot, we make a lot of mistakes, but we grow a lot as well. Normally when we get to adult, you know, like life becomes much more stable and we don’t wanna take risks.

So I think the same key message that you bring here is to actually don’t be afraid to take the necessary steps, right? As long as it’s aligned with what you want and who you want to become, right?

[00:25:01] Identifying Core Values

Henry Suryawirawan: Which brings us to the important things first, right? Because if we wanna be intentional, you mentioned that we need to understand our core values. So tell us, what do you mean by core values and how can we find them?

Jeff Perry: Yeah. So core values are values and principles and traits that we care about that we want to live by. Some people find those that come from like a faith background or something like that. For others, it may just be things that they value in other people, and that’s some of the ways that we can identify those things. But I look at core values as an opportunity to be a… just those guiding principles that we make decisions on. So we can identify those. I have some activities in there and, and you can start with sort of saying that like, hey, what are the traits that you really appreciate in other people? Hey, this person is really what? Like, what’s the word that you would use to describe this person that you really love and respect? You know, make a list of those people and what are the traits that you really respect about them. If you really respect it in others, it’s probably something that you care about and want to cultivate more and more in yourself.

And then we can start to whittle that down. And I usually recommend getting to a list of three to seven. You get too few, you know, there’s not really much going on. You get too many, you can’t even remember them. I use a group of five and I put it into an acronym to help me remember what they are. And so then when I am faced with decisions or opportunities or challenges, I can look at and remember and reflect on those core values and say, hey, is this in line with those things that I’ve declared are important to me and the values that I wanna live by? Am I gonna be 100% perfect and 100% congruent with those values, you know, every moment of every day? If I can keep coming back to that, I can keep remembering that and I can keep trying to become more and more of a person who lives by those values. Then perhaps when other people interact with me, they’re going to recognize those values in me. And I can make decisions based on those values rather than based on some of the fears or uncertainties or the other things that we’ve previously talked about.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, I think these days there are so many, these kind of personality tests that can kind of like guide you along, like how to find your traits, maybe your values as well. I personally like the Strengths Finder, right? So you get the top five or whatever that the strengths that you can find from there. But to me, the most important thing is not just identifying those values, but you use them to actually make decisions, right? Because sometimes, we kind of like take for granted, okay, this is who we are. But we kind of like forget what are the values, but we make decision based on, maybe, a compulsion, right? Like, taking at that moment, what is most important at that time, but doesn’t necessarily align with your values. So like, identifying this value, I think it’s really important. But then you have to use that when making decisions, especially the big, uh, major decisions like changing career or, you know, changing the kind of lifestyle that you want to have.

[00:28:00] The Power of Mindsets

Henry Suryawirawan: After values, the next important thing in your book you mentioned about mindsets. Tell us, what is the most important thing about mindset that we have to cultivate?

Jeff Perry: Yeah. Mindsets. I get really excited about the power of mindsets. And it’s our thought patterns and our beliefs that drive our actions, which then drive our results, right? And so we often, when we’re trying to make a change in our life, like, hey if I have a health goal and I want to lose some weight or I want to be able to lift a certain amount, I want to run a race at a certain pace, or whatever that is, right? Our natural tendency is to prescribe, okay, what are all the things we need to do differently, right? I need to go on this diet or I need to do this particular training program, or whatever that is, right? And those are good things to do, like we need to take actions like that.

But, you know, we’re coming up on a new year, heading into 2024 here pretty soon. And, you know, the data on like New Year’s resolutions isn’t very good. It’s like, I think less than 10% of people follow through on resolutions. And why is that? I think is because we only are looking at the behaviors that we wanna do and not thinking about our mindsets and our beliefs about ourselves as we enter into that. Because what we believe about ourselves and the world and the people around us, our mindsets drive those actions. And so, I say mindset fuels behavior and behavior fuels results, right?

And so, probably the most common mindset that most people would be familiar with is the growth mindset versus a fixed mindset popularized by Carol Dweck, a famous TED Talk and a book called Mindset. So just this idea of like, hey, do I think I’m fixed and do I think other people are fixed? Like this is who I am and this is who I’m always going to be. If so, then that’s going to compress my view of what’s possible, right? And compress the actions that I might take or not take, because I don’t think I can really change and grow in significant ways.

But if instead I look at for the growth, I’m gonna take some of those risks, I’m gonna see the opportunity for growth in those, whether or not the outcome I was looking for happens, I can see that I am changing. I am growing. I am becoming who I want to become, and I can expect that of you, Henry, or anyone else that I’m talking to, I can see that in my children. I can see that in my spouse. I can see that in the people in my community and those that I work with, right. When I can see they have the opportunity, the potential to grow. Well that changes how I focus on my own growth. It also changes the expectations and the view I have of other people in really significant ways as well. But if I’m fixed, you know, I’m gonna really compress that.

And so there’s a whole lot that goes into how do we identify what are those mindsets that might be holding us back. There’s some suggestions in the book on how to do that and to almost use the scientific method to say, hey, I have assumptions or beliefs or mindsets that I’m holding onto right now. Can I move through scientific method, run experiments to collect data to prove or disprove that belief that might not be serving me right now? And if I can show with data, engineers are gonna like this, that’s not true, that starts to diminish that belief and that mindset’s power over me, cause I can see the evidence, right? And we do that over and over again and we start to change in more meaningful ways. And not just the actions are changing, but that more fundamental mindset and our thinking patterns changes as well in more sustainable ways.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, I like you mentioned about experiments, right? So I think what some called also scientific method or hypothesis driven, right? I think that is really crucial. If you wanna change mindset, I don’t think we can just totally change it overnight, right? So we have to go through certain steps, especially the limiting beliefs that we have, right, the limiting mindset. So that normally takes time, that takes a lot of evidence as well. Like we show, we proof that actually it doesn’t work as what we thought. And then maybe we can start changing our mindset slowly.

And I love the way that you mentioned about mindset actually fuels behavior and also fuels the results, right? But many people actually starts from the behaviors first. Like, we think that, let’s say we wanna get fit, right, we just do the activities. And afterwards we can get fit, right? But I think like just what James Clear mentioned as well, right? We need to start from our identity or mindset in your case.

Jeff Perry: Yeah, exactly.

Henry Suryawirawan: And then those will kind of like power of habit and then change our results as a result of that. think that’s really powerful.

Jeff Perry: And that’s a beautiful way to look at it, right? Because this identity and, and the cool thing about embracing that identity piece is like, that’s what’s really true about us. Like that’s what’s true about who we are and our potential, right? Instead of only focusing on looking at the past and what we’ve done in the past, right? But we start to embrace the truth because that those limiting beliefs are untruths, right? And so it’s almost the idea that the truth just sets you free. When we can embrace the truth about ourselves and that potential that we have to grow and become and embrace those identities and we act from that place and beautiful things happen.

[00:33:10] Outward vs. Inward Mindsets

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, apart from the growth mindset that you mentioned in the book, I find that the . other mindset that you mentioned, the outward mindset versus the inward mindset. I think that’s also important for you to share, maybe, with the audience.

Jeff Perry: Yeah, learning about this mindset was actually kinda my first foray into really digging into mindsets. I was teaching workshops on this topic that comes from work of the Arbinger Institute, which is leadership and culture firm based out of Utah. They’ve got a number of books that people can go check out. And it was life changing for me years ago. This was 2017 when I was first introduced to it. Of all the mindsets that I’m aware of, you can look at a number of them. This is the one that’s most kind of personal relationship driven and how I see other people, right?

So just to characterize it very quickly, if I have and when I have an inward mindset, I see other people that I interact with as objects. I objectify them. And that doesn’t usually happen in great ways, but I can see them as like vehicles. Just like, hey, they are the path for me to accomplish my goals, and I just need to use them, right? I can see them as obstacles in my way. I need to get them outta the way. Or kind of irrelevancies, like, I don’t care about them. I just am going to dismiss them and whatnot. None of those ways are helpful with how we view the fellow humans on this walk of life, right? And it usually doesn’t tend towards great collaboration, innovation, and things in an organization, or a team either in the workplace.

And so if instead we can embrace the outward mindset to get outside of ourselves and see, okay, what do others care about and need, and what are their challenges and opportunities that they’re focused on. That doesn’t mean I need to put others before me at every stage, but I can take those into account and seek to understand where they’re coming from and what they care about, and take that into account with the actions that I take and the ways that I focus on, which really improves that, that collaboration and innovation and the quality of those relationships that we have. ‘Cause then they can sense, you know, we can all sense if people are just using us or, or trying to get us out of the way, versus do they really care about us.

So we can invite that in other people as we attempt to take that approach. And we’ve probably all had the experience where a leader that we really cared about or a coworker who has been really great to us. Has really given us that feeling that they really care about us, and that invites us to kind of reciprocate that with them as well.

And so this is a life changing. I had one client in particular who we worked on this and he is like, hey, I’m making these changes. I haven’t even thought about this. I’m just like coming to work and just doing my work and putting my head down. He said, I feel like I’m becoming a better human . And that was a cool experience for someone to say that. ‘Cause that’s a, it is a beautiful thing. Absolutely. I want us all to think about how can we be better humans on this planet.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, I find that really interesting, especially as you get more intentional, right? In your, you know, your decision in being who you are, right? To get actually more motivated by the outward things, right? The people that you mentioned, because there’s just so many things that can get better if we work together with other people, right? Especially if you’re in leadership, right? Like people call this like servant leadership. Or I also have your friend as well, Ryan Gottfredson, right? So he has topic, vertical development, where leaders have to think more about others. So I think all these are kind of like aligned together. And I really like this concept, especially for leaders as well, right? Because you need to start thinking about other people, not just about yourself.

[00:36:42] Getting Career Clarity

Henry Suryawirawan: So let’s move on. After we identify our core values, we change our, kind of like our mindset slowly, right? The next thing if you say that we wanna become intentional is to get career clarity. Maybe we have discussed a little bit why it is important, but maybe if you can get a gist, like, why do we need to get career clarity to become more intentional?

Jeff Perry: Yeah. So I mean, they go hand in hand. The idea of getting clarity and being intentional, because getting clarity is like getting clear on what you wanna be when you grow up, and, and things that you care about in your career as it aligns with your life. And being intentional is deciding to do that. But it’s not just what you want, but it’s why you want it, right? So also tapping into those deeper levels of motivation that are driving the actions and the things that we care about. So there’s some of the ideas around this.

A couple of metaphors that I think are helpful. One is to think about career clarity not like this magical treasure map where, hey, here’s my goal. X marks the spot, right? And I just need to follow the map and I’m gonna get there. But like one way is to think of like a North Star, like a guiding light that, you know, doesn’t really change much, but can guide us our directions. Our paths may be a little bit windy, and that’s fine, like things are gonna change. It’s not just gonna be a straight linear path to get exactly to where we want to. But we can always see that light, that’s unchanging.

And as we make decisions, hey, is that leading me towards that direction? Because the opportunities and challenges are gonna come. We can’t foresee all that, right, but having that light as a guide. And the other thing is to have a set of filters, right? So as we make decisions, whether those core values and the other things we care about from a career standpoint. For some people, like where do you want live? And remote or in person work, or the type of role that you really like to do, or do you want to travel or not? Is it more focused on product or people or the technology and like all those different mixed things … and that some of those things will change.

But over time, we can get clear on those things, that we can use those as filters to say, hey, that’s not really in line with the things that are important to me in my career at this point, that are gonna help me take the next level of growth. I can use that as a filter to say, hey, does that meet the criteria? No. Let’s let that stop and I don’t need to consider that anymore. And if it does, then let’s continue to explore that or to design with intention towards that. And so a couple different ways. The guiding light or the filter. But again, it’s all trying to help us be intentional with the decisions that we make at each stage of our lives and our careers.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah. Again, not to repeat, but I think career is like where we spend most of our days, right? Uh, our life in fact. So I think the thing that you mentioned, right, we should decide . what we want, but also why we want it, right? Because sometimes, when given career opportunities, sometimes we can’t just choose like, okay, we want all the career opportunities we want, right? They’re kind of like limited and it’s contextual and time-based as well, right? So sometimes getting career clarity will help us guide in making those career decisions that we want to take. And it doesn’t have to be, you know, changing company, right? But it also can be changing roles or changing skill sets, changing experience or maybe changing mentors as well, right? So I think getting this clarity really important if you wanna be more intentional.

Jeff Perry: Absolutely.

[00:39:57] Genius Zone

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah. As part of this career clarity as well, you also advocate people to find their genius zones or identify their genius zones. We kind of like covered it before in the previous episode, but I think I’d like you to also maybe kind of like repeat, what do you mean by genius zones? How can people find them?

Jeff Perry: Yeah, so this is a really exciting topic for me too. If I was to recommend one book on, on the subject, it’d be The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. But it is just like these different levels, right? So we think about a zone of incompetence like, hey, I’m not very good at something. And next level is zone of competence. Like, hey, I can do this and I can do this reasonably well. And then a lot of us get to a zone of excellence like, hey, I’m really quite good at this. But a genius zone is something that’s even one more level of uniqueness, where perhaps I’m one of the few people in the world that do it this way. Um, and it’s a combination of perhaps innate skills or traits about us, experiences that we’ve had and skills that we’ve built over the course of our life and career.

And when you look at that way, then diving into our genius zones and if we can live more of our lives there, we’re thinking about like the 80-20 principle, like genius zone work is absolutely that 20% that provides the biggest level of results. Cause that’s where we’re living our, where we’re doing our best work. It’s not just where we are most productive and where we have the most impact, but also where we find the most satisfaction and enjoyment and engagement in our work. Like it’s really fun to be living in genius zone.

‘Cause it’s synonymous with being in the zone or being in a state of flow, usually. Where our level of skill rises to the challenge that is there. From research flow comes from research by the guy by the name of Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, uh, if I’m pronouncing that right. He passed away a year or two ago.

But, anyway, but just the idea of like, hey, where can I do my absolute best work? Can I find ways to identify that? What is it about that that lets me do that? Is it the environment? Is it the work itself? Is it the people? You know, getting clarity on that? And then can I find ways to be in that more often? Can I shift some of the ways that I work now in my environment? Look for opportunities to take on projects or other things in my current work or find a role that aligns with that even more to produce more impact, to be more intentional. You’re gonna be more engaged and all those other things that’s we’re looking for.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, the genius zones you mentioned, right. It could be a combination of talent, experience, skill sets that we learn along the way, right? But the true insights that I find when I read this part is actually to find the activities or the skillset, or, you know, the job that kind of like brings you into the state of flow, right? Where people say that you completely lose track of time, right? You just feel that you are, you know, more energized, more results, more productivity.

[00:42:54] Getting More Into Genius Zone

Henry Suryawirawan: But I find that not many people actually experience this kind of flow in their day-to-day work. Maybe not so much also about the work itself, but also about disruption, maybe also about busyness, right? Maybe also about the bosses that they work with. So is there a way to actually kind of like help people align more with their genius zones without being affected by all these things?

Jeff Perry: Yeah, so I mean, the first thing obviously is identifying what those genius zones are, like, how do you get in a state of flow? So reflecting on when have you ever been in that state? And that can be in a work setting, but maybe it’s in a personal life. You could have a hobby or a sport, some people playing music or whatever that is. Like where are you in a state of flow and looking at what is the environment that creates that. For some people, it’s being around people. For some people, it’s sharing that with other people. For some people, it’s an alone, singular experience. And by the way, we wanna find those places inside and outside of our work experience.

Like I was talking to a client the other day, like hey, he really loves riding motorcycles, right? And riding a motorcycle and on curvy roads is this great example of him having to be fully present in the moment. And he loves it. Cause he can’t get distracted by other things around him. He has to do that. Uh, otherwise there’s a safety factor there, right? And that’s outside of his work. But he sees some of the ways that corresponds with some of the ways that he works. Like, hey, how can I get fully present in some of the things?

And he looks at, you know, opportunities and situations where he is has this big challenge that, challenges that he rises to. And he’s an experienced and accomplished leader, and so he loves to bring people along that ride and find those cross-functional relationships and bring people together towards creating something new and not just maintaining something that gets him in a state of excitement, passion driven, taking on a challenge that excites him rather than discourages him. And so he’s able to, to find ways to do that. Now he also finds ways to communicate with his leaders and the other team members about how he organizes his work to do that best. So he is not in constant interruptions, you know, need to turn off notifications and things and set some boundaries in your personal, professional life. All those things that helps you live that, but no one can take responsibility for that more than you can, right? We all need to own our, our own approach to these things.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, so I think environment you mentioned is really critical. As well try to shape your environment such that you can also get this state of flow, right? Could be, you know, turning off notifications, setting up deep work in your schedule and things like that. So definitely that would help as well.

[00:45:42] Skills to Support Your Intentions

Henry Suryawirawan: So after we’ve done all this, right, I think you also mentioned as part of the last chapter in your book, a few skills that we have to probably kind of like hone as well in order to become more intentional. Maybe if you can cover just one or two, what are the important skills that we also need to be aware of to become much better intentional.

Jeff Perry: Yeah. So the last chapter’s a little different than the rest and it focused on skills rather than kind of big principles. But two that I’ll focus on, cause I think they’re most related. One is communication. The communication is kind of an art and how we communicate with people, and not just the words that we say, but we were talking about mindsets earlier. But the way that we believe about other people has a huge impact on the results and how we’re going to be able to work with people. And that’s critical at any stage of your career, right? I’m gonna communicate differently with someone in a different role, with someone in a different level. I’m gonna communicate differently with an executive than a peer, right? And understanding how to contextually communicate the right things in the right moment, in the right way, is very important. And not all encompassing in the book, but just more of a call to say, hey, this is something that’s important for you to learn and grow and, and improve on.

Now the other thing as far as like, hey, we’re not just trying to build intentional careers, we’re trying to build intentional lives. And the research bears out that the most important by far indicator of someone having a satisfactory or satisfying life is the quality of their relationships. It increases health outcomes, increases joy, happiness, satisfaction, all those things, is the quality of relationships. And it’s not just like romantic relationships. It’s friendships, it’s coworkers, it’s family, it’s neighbors, it’s everything. And so to live a great life, we need to deepen, strengthen, and develop core relationships in our lives. And doing so, it is gonna help us become who we want to become.

And those best friendships are the ones that, you know, to think about the inward-outward mindset, things that we don’t need to get anything out of someone. That they’re just there to be friends and we just care about them for the sake of enjoying their company. And so do you have relationships like that right now? If so, almost as much as anything else, is important to try and find those people that you want to spend some time with and cultivate those relationships in meaningful ways.

Henry Suryawirawan: Really beautiful the way that you mention it, right? Like relationship, don’t forget, like being intentional doesn’t mean all about you, right? But also like finding the meaningful, true relationship that you also want to have in your life, right? Not just the peers and your colleagues, in your company, right? But also like friends outside of work and also in your family, right? I think that’s really important.

Apart from communication and relationship, you also mentioned about power of accountability and also giving feedback. I suggest people to read themselves in the book, because I think, all in all, the book covers like how we can become much more intentional. And truly at the end, right, become more fulfilled and happy in our life. So I think please check out the book by Jeff.

[00:48:44] 3 Tech Lead Wisdom

Henry Suryawirawan: So as we reach the end of our conversation, Jeff, I asked you this question last time, which I called the three technical leadership wisdom. I will ask you one more time. Let’s see if you can get the same answer like previously or you kind of like change a little bit with your new book as well.

Jeff Perry: Yeah, it’s probably different. I don’t know what I said last time. I didn’t go back and review it. But here’s what I’ll say today.

Number one, you know, we’ve been harping on this. Our whole conversation is to be intentional. You get to decide who you want to become in your life and your career. No one else does. And so take that opportunity to decide and take the actions to become who you want to become.

Number two is don’t try and go it alone, right? We need to embrace those relationships, get help from others. Uh, life is not meant to be a solitary experience, right? So embrace those professional and those personal relationships that can help us enjoy a great life. And also that can support us through the good times and the bad times, that we’ll go through life, to live, um, the life that we want to live.

And three is find ways to invest in yourself. When you think about finances, usually we’re talking about what’s the investment, what’s my return on investment? All these things. Absolutely, the best investment you can ever make is an investment in you. And that can be investment in time, that can be investment in money to get help or resources that can help you become who you want to become in these ways, in education and coaching, mentoring, or other programs or other things that might be helpful for you. But absolutely invest in yourself in intentional ways.

Henry Suryawirawan: Lovely. I think you kind of like recapped the whole thing about being intentional engineer, right? So I think thanks again Jeff, for being on this show and also share about your new book. So I read the book as well as preparation for this podcast. I find it really interesting. I also wrote the forward for the book. Thanks for giving me the opportunity. So I think I’ll just ask people to go check it out and read the book, which I find really, really useful. So, thanks again, Jeff, for being here.

Jeff Perry: Yeah. Thanks so much for your support, Henry. And if people want to go learn more, they can find me at jeff-perry.com or go find more information on the book at theintentionalengineer.com.

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