#146 - Wrong Fit, Right Fit: Why How We Work Matters More Than Ever - Andre Martin

[00:00:59] Episode Introduction

Henry Suryawirawan: Welcome back to the Tech Lead Journal podcast, the podcast where you can learn about technical leadership and excellence from my conversations with great thought leaders in the tech industry. If you haven’t, please subscribe on your podcast app, and social media on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. And for video contents, you can also subscribe on YouTube and TikTok. And if you have been enjoying Tech Lead Journal contents, support my work by either buying me a coffee at techleadjournal.dev/tip or becoming a patron at techleadjournal.dev/patron.

My guest for today’s episode is Andre Martin. Dr. Andre is the author of “Wrong Fit, Right Fit”. In this episode, he shared the importance of finding the right fit company for us in our work. Dr. Andre used the analogy of writing with a non-dominant hand to explain working in a wrong fit company. He shared some of the common misalignments, such as the modern hiring practices, infinite browsing, and company culture deck trend. Dr. Andre then explained how we can work towards finding our right fit company by doing more self-reflection using some fit excursions shared in his book. He also touched on the important concept of buffers and the role of leaders and managers in the workplace. Towards the end, Dr. Andre shared some practical tips on how companies can create a better right fit culture in the organizations.

I hope you enjoy listening to this episode and find some useful tips to finding the right fit company and work. And if you think someone else will benefit from this episode, please help share it with your colleagues, your friends, and communities, and leave a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It will help me a lot in getting more people discover and listen to this podcast. And I really appreciate it. Let’s go to my conversation with Dr. Andre after quick words from our sponsor.

[00:03:20] Introduction

Henry Suryawirawan: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another new episode of the Tech Lead Journal podcast. Today, I’m very happy to have Dr. Andre Martin here. He’s the author of “Wrong Fit, Right Fit: Why How We Work Matters More Than Ever”. So Dr. Andre Martin is an organizational psychologist. So I always love to talk with authors in this kind of area so that we can learn how to build a high performing organization where people are thriving and happy and engaged as well. So Dr. Andre, welcome to the show. Really happy to have you here.

Andre Martin: Thank you, Henry. It’s great to be here.

[00:03:53] Career Journey

Henry Suryawirawan: Dr. Andre, I love to ask my guests to first share about themselves, right? Talking more about maybe career highlights or major turning points so that we can all learn from you.

Andre Martin: Fantastic! So, I’m currently living here in Portland, Oregon with my wife. I have two kids, two English Labs, and my career started back in grad school when I became an organizational psychologist. And my first job was in a small consulting firm working in steel mills and factories in the Midwest doing team-based leader assessments. And then I went to a place called the Center for Creative Leadership, which is one of the top executive development firms in the world and really got to work with, coach, train some of the best leaders in the world and learned a ton about what it means to run a company and how to be a leader and build a great culture.

And I had these series of roles either as the chief learning officer or chief talent officer at renowned companies like Mars, Nike, Target, and Google. And since leaving Google, I’ve really started working with VC and growth equity firms doing human capital operating work for them. So really helping founders to just build better companies. And I’d say all of those experiences have just been fantastic. I’ve learned a ton about culture, around how to build a great work environment, and really how to help talent grow faster than the company.

Henry Suryawirawan: Thanks for sharing your story. So one thing that we’re going to learn today is from your experience, right? Having worked in all these great companies and also from your experience, how to build talents and having people more thriving in the companies.

[00:05:28] Wrong Fit, Right Fit

Henry Suryawirawan: So let’s start with your book, right? Wrong Fit, Right Fit. The title itself sounds very intriguing, right? I’m sure in the past few years, people have been experiencing this kind of, maybe, personal challenges, right? How to find the right fit company to work with. And you say that there is a right fit company waiting for everyone. So let us talk maybe a little bit more about why do you see this as a problem or what kind of challenges that people are seeing at this time?

Andre Martin: Yeah, Henry. So I’d start with just the reason that I started writing the book. Originally, I thought I was going to write a book about culture. In this new era of work, the post COVID hybrid ways of working, the great resignation, all the things. And so I went into the book writing, starting with this idea that it’s really about good or bad culture. And if you can figure out the keys to building a great culture, you can get talent to come and they’ll stay there for their career. And I think what happened is that early in the conversations, I started by just talking to everyone in my network. CEOs, CHROs, great leaders, aspiring talent. And what became really clear really fast was there’s not one way to build a great culture. There’s not one great company. And if I take my own experience, Target is very different than Mars is very different than Nike is very different than Google. And so that got me on this place of, hey, maybe it isn’t about good or bad culture or one right way to build a company. Maybe it’s around right or wrong fit.

So how can we help companies get clearer about how they work, how they collaborate, how they solve problems, manage conflict, socialize, develop people, give feedback, all the things that make up work? And what if we could help talent figure out their work preferences? What do I value and how I like to work? And then if we can put those two things together, more talent will land in companies that allow them to just do their best every day.

[00:07:27] Writing with Our Non-Dominant Hand

Henry Suryawirawan: Right. So I think it’s what you’re saying is like, it’s not just about great culture, great companies, right? So everyone has a place in any kind of companies as long as it fits their preference, right? Either way of working or the kind of people that work there, and maybe the job itself, whether it’s challenging or not. So I think the key message first is about finding the right fit, right? But one thing that I want to highlight is that, you say that if we work at a wrong fit company, right, the metaphor is like writing with our non-dominant hand. So maybe elaborate a little bit more about this metaphor.

Andre Martin: Yeah. So Henry, let me start with just a stat that sort of got me really motivated to write the book. And it’s a Gallup statistic that says we have 7.8 trillion dollars of lost productivity in our companies due to disengagement. Due to the idea that people don’t feel connected to their company, connected to their job, and so they’re just not doing their best work. And so because our talent’s not doing their best work, then we’re not delivering the best for our customers.

And so, when I think about engagement, an easy way to think about that is when you’re in an engaging environment, a place that makes sense to you, that works the way that you work, work feels easy. It’s effortless. You’re putting in the hours, but it doesn’t feel hard. And when you’re in a wrong fit environment, it’s stressful. You feel less productive. You feel less competent. You have less confidence in your work. And all those things, from a metaphor standpoint, sort of became really clear in this metaphor about writing with your dominant or non-dominant hand.

When we write with our dominant hand, it’s easy. It’s fluid. It’s high quality. We don’t even have to think about it, right? We’re just writing whatever poetry or great novel or great work that we’re working on. When you work with your non-dominant hand, if you’ve ever tried it, it’s really hard. Your quality is terrible. It’s stressful. It takes a lot of effort and concentration. And in the end, you walk out not feeling like it’s your best work. And so that was sort of a metaphor that everyone could relate to. And you could have a real visceral feeling of what it feels like if you’re not in a highly engaged environment that fits you.

Henry Suryawirawan: I did give it a try to write with a non-dominant hand before, right? It is like what you said, right, it’s really hard. I mean, we can produce the output, maybe other people can still read what you wrote. But yeah, it’s like a lot of effort. We need to focus and concentrate, right? And try to be conscious with the movement of our hands. I think similar things when we work in a company that is a wrong fit for us, right? We try to adapt, we try our best to work hard. And I think like what you said in the beginning, right? I personally also experienced it myself. It’s not about the companies. So I work in big companies, great companies as well. But sometimes, when you just didn’t feel that is the right place for you, I think you will feel this kind of things as well.

[00:10:25] Common Wrong Fit Misalignments

Henry Suryawirawan: So what do you think are some of the misalignments, so to speak, where even though the person works in a great companies, but they still don’t feel it’s the right fit for them. Maybe you can share a little bit more what kind of misalignments that people have normally in their working environment.

Andre Martin: Yeah, I’d be happy to. I think it’s important for the listeners. First, Henry, to realize that the book is based on about a hundred interviews with talent from all over the world, from CEOs and founders, down to aspiring talent just entering the workplace. And the one thing that was really cool for me and holding those interviews was everybody’s had a right fit and a wrong fit experience. And when they talk about the wrong fit experience, they talk about feeling like they weren’t at home. They couldn’t be themselves. And one of my favorites is they talked about this idea of it felt like everyone had the secret decoder ring of success, except for me.

And they would look out in the world and say there’s people that look like me. There’s people that work like me. There’s people that have the same experiences, knowledge, and education that I have. And it looks like every day that this is just easy for them. That success comes to them every time they pick up a pen or go to a meeting. And for the person talking, it still felt really hard. And I think what that tells you is that, you know, it’s not as simple as just having the right set of skills or the right values. That the way we work, there’s a lot of really important elements.

And if you don’t fit, the other thing that a lot of the folks in wrong fit environments told me is when they didn’t fit, you know what they did, Henry? They worked harder. They tried to change their ways of working. They tried to alter who they are. They effectively tried to work with their non-dominant hand. And it just cost them energy, cost them engagement, cost them confidence, and in many cases, almost cost them their careers.

Henry Suryawirawan: And why do you think people, I mean, the first preference for them is to work harder, right? I think sometimes this is quite intriguing. So we know that we are not happy doing that kind of job or being in that environment. But why people, the first preference is always to work harder, try to learn more, do more and things like that?

Andre Martin: Yeah, I think, Henry, it comes down to a couple of things. First is the way our HR systems are set up. We’re sort of made to feel like we’re not performing well. Like we’re not doing the job we’re supposed to do. Because you think about your performance reviews, right? If you’re not in a right fit environment, there’s a chance you’re getting a three instead of a five. And so someone’s telling you you’re not doing a good enough job, when in fact, it’s not that you’re not doing it, it’s that the system, the way the company works, doesn’t make it easy for you.

And so I think the first thing is many of our HR systems make us feel like it’s our fault. That we’re flawed or incapable or not good enough. And that’s just not true. A number of my interviewers left these wrong fit experiences where they felt that way, and they’ve gone on to have exceptional careers. They’ve built companies. They’re the CEO, the CHRO, the head of technology for all these great places. And they look back at those wrong fit stories and they’re like, people were telling me I wasn’t good. And it wasn’t that they weren’t good. They just didn’t fit. And so I think that’s one issue.

I think the second thing is we all want to succeed. We all want to be great. We all want to do a good job, I believe that about most people. And so, when we’re not feeling like we’re doing our best work, we tend to just want to try harder. Stay longer hours. Put in more effort. And in the end, that just gets us more stressed, more frustrated. And it also has a profound impact on our life outside of work.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah. So I think the profound impact like you said, outside work, right? I think that really, really is important for people to realize, right? So you may be frustrated at work and you think you can switch off at home. But most of the times, from my personal experience, you can’t, right? It will just affect you. Sometimes it’s about negativity, sometimes the mood that you bring to other people. So do realize that. And I think what you said just now, when you explain the HR system, the way like the performance management is done, right? So I think people have to realize, sometimes, if you didn’t perform well in that particular cycle in that particular company, it doesn’t mean that you are not good, right? So I think that’s a key message that I just want to highlight as well.

[00:14:50] Way of Working

Henry Suryawirawan: So you mentioned about way of working. And in your book you mentioned a lot of times about way of working. First of all, what is way of working and why is it so important for people to find the right fit way of working?

Andre Martin: Yeah, when you think about it, we assume that when we go to our job no matter what company that we work in, it’s the same job, right? An engineer at one company is the same job as an engineer at another. But what’s really interesting is when you break down how companies work, when you think about how a company sets strategy, prioritizes, collaborates, solves problems, brainstorms, socializes, gives feedback, develops people, how they gather, the relationship with time, how they think about rest and recovery; all these things are very different depending on the company you work in.

And companies aren’t very good at defining those. That is, they don’t tell people overtly on their first day, here’s the roadmap, the playbook for how our company works. Go and be great. What they do instead is they kind of let those grow organically. They just let them sort of be created over time by leaders who come in and take positions and do these new things. And so two things happen.

On one side, there’s not really that recipe for success anymore. It’s more of just a bunch of different leaders' ways of preferring to work. And the other thing that happens is we actually ask talent to bump into those. So because we’re not really clear and consistent about how we work in a company, we say, Henry, on your second day, get out there and you’ll figure it out. But the thing is, every time I have to try to figure out how to be great, my creative energy is going to coordination as opposed to my craft or what I do really well. So we’re bleeding engagement and creative energy on really great people trying to figure out how to be really great inside the company.

And so I guess, the thesis is if companies were a little bit clearer about how they worked, how they did all those things I talked about, and they were consistent in asking any leader that joins the company to learn how work gets done here, and then if they told talent on their first day how to get it done, imagine how much faster you are to productivity and how much a better chance you have of being successful.

Henry Suryawirawan: Right. So I think I read some parts of your book where you mentioned when the company was small, maybe they did define like what kind of culture, what kind of values they want, but as the company grows and they hire more outsiders, right, the leaders, the managers. They all bring their own way of working, right?

But you as a company don’t actually ask them to change the way of working so that it follows what the company values. So I think that’s also a great thing as well for leaders here to understand that you cannot just let the culture or the values grow organically. Because there are so many people, and it can bring you to either positive for sure, there’s a chance for that. But mostly negative, right? Because there’s just too many perspectives at one time.

Andre Martin: First of all, thank you for reading it. I mean, I couldn’t have done a better job of talking about that if I tried. But I do want to underline a point that you made in there, which is every company has a secret sauce. It has a unique way that it works. Think of it as a playbook or as an operating model for success. And it usually originates way back in the founding. And then, as we continue to do work, because we’re in close proximity to each other, we model the way we want other people to work. So they see it, they pick it up, they work like we work.

But then what tends to happen is imagine if you’re let’s say a hundred person organization. And you add 200 people to your company. Those 200 people are coming from somewhere else that has a different way of working, that models different things. So they’re all bringing a backpack full of ways that work gets done. From principles work is based on, to practices and tools that we use, to even the platforms that we have. And so what’s really interesting about this is because we haven’t really done our due diligence on keeping a hold of our secret way of doing, working our, you know, our secret sauce. We end up creating three versions of the company.

The first version of the company is the one that recruiters give us in hiring. It’s sort of this aspirational version of the company, either who it was when it was young or what we wish it was every day. And we’re going to present this to you like the greatest brand campaign ever. And so I think, wow, what a great place to work. I can’t wait to join. I’m meeting my leaders on their best day. I’m getting introduced to people who have all this energy and excitement because they want to impress me. They want me to come join, right?

And then you get there the first day, and you get sort of the best version of the real company. They put the best leaders into your orientation program. They show you the products. They tell you all these great customer stories. They introduce you to the work platforms that actually work, and they have you sort of use those. Things like email or our insurance systems when you pick your insurance. And then the last version of the company is the company you work in every day. And often that’s where we actually run into the reality of what it’s going to feel like any given Tuesday.

And think about it. If we start here with this aspirational version and by the time we’re in our second week, we’re working basically an entirely different company. And we’ve just eroded the engagement and excitement that a new joiner has. And that’s why we’re seeing statistics like 30% of new joiners are leaving their companies within the first three months, citing a lack of development and unclear expectations. We’re also seeing that about 50 some percent of employees, if they do stay six months, they continue to look for a job. That means that they’re not actually committed.

And then the other stat that stays with me is from MIT, which they did a big sort of research project, looking at the espoused values of company, what the company says they are versus how it feels to work in the company based on review sites like Indeed, Comparably and Glassdoor. And you know what they found? Zero correlation between the espoused values and the values that are actually in the company day to day. And in some places, Henry, there’s a negative correlation. Which means they’ll stand up and say, innovation matters to us, and in fact, the employees are saying this isn’t an innovative company at all. So you think about that, think about what that does to engagement and commitment and my ability to sort of feel like I can be a success.

Henry Suryawirawan: You started to unpack so many things I want to cover, but let’s start one by one, right? So I think I laughed, and when you explained that and when I read parts of your book about this as well, right? There are three versions of the company, right. So when we recruit we always picture the best or sometimes even too much aspirational, right? So we want to be X. We are not there, but we aspire to be that kind of a company, right? I think that is the first kind of like false version because talents will tend to think that is true. And also the Glassdoor thing, you know, the review websites, I know that I read from some sources that sometimes the company actually deleted negative comments, asks employees to write good comments. So all these are like a good kind of projections, so that talents want to work with them.

[00:22:04] The Danger of Culture Deck

Henry Suryawirawan: So I think it goes back to what you’ve mentioned as a culture deck kind of a trend, right? It started by the startups. So why do you think this kind of a culture deck aspirational kind of values of a company are dangerous? So maybe if you can elaborate a little bit more on that.

Andre Martin: Well, here’s the thing is I talked about some of these trends, things like the rise of the culture deck, right? Which, you know, Netflix was the first, but many of the tech based companies have used them where they sort of show, I think what they were meaning to do, hoping to do is to say, hey, we run our company differently. Eventually, what that turned into, though, was instead of being honest and authentic about here’s how the company runs today, and so come here if you work this way, and here’s where we’re trying to get. Instead, they just started presenting where we’re trying to get often. And so the culture deck, which was meant to teach people the secret sauce, turned into really brand marketing campaigns. When you think about, I mean, go to any career site, almost of any company out there, and it’s filled with poetry and inspiring language and great leader stories and happy employees. And I think for a lot of folks, that’s true.

But in all the companies I’ve been in, about 60%, and Gallup would say it’s probably 32% on average, but often the brands I’ve been in, about 60% of people are really happy. They’re content. And then 40% are struggling. They’re writing with their non-dominant hand. And although the brand marketing and recruiting isn’t the only problem, it’s a big one, right? Because it’s our first and only set of information that allows us to make a good decision. And so I think the culture deck started this idea of just turning companies into brand campaigns. And so whoever can look the coolest is bound to get the best employees.

[00:23:51] The Danger of Infinite Browsing

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, I think that’s the current trend in the hiring world, I would say. Which leads to what you said in the earlier conversation that you mentioned, like some percentage of these new joiners, right, after six months they are still looking for other jobs, right? They’re still browsing. So you call this infinite browsing, the lack of commitment, right? So this is a new trend for me, a new insight. So maybe if you can explain the danger of this infinite browsing for employees. Why do you think they are still looking for new jobs even though they have been there for like six months?

Andre Martin: Well, Henry, I have to start by giving credit for the term infinite browsing from a book that I think everyone should read called “Dedicated”. It’s by an author named Pete Davis. And he’s talking about this crisis of commitment, not just in jobs, but all over the world. You know, whether you look at divorce rates for marriage, how often people leave their hometowns, to the groups we join and leave to the companies. And his thesis is really one that, you know, really is a a trend that’s important to me, which is, because of things like social media, because of marketing campaigns by companies, no one really has a clear version of the truth. All of a sudden, we have a million stories of where the grass is greener.

You pick up your phone, you get on Tik Tok or Facebook, somebody’s doing something really cool. And you think, God, I want to do that. And so we end up chasing this idea of FOMO or the fear of missing out. And so in almost every pursuit, we’re kind of keeping one foot in and one foot out. Maybe there’s something better. Maybe there’s a better job, a better partner, a better best friend, a better city to live in. And so we’re not committing fully.

And so, you know, I look at that trend and I think, man, if companies could be a little bit more authentic, and talent could be a little bit clearer about what they want, not what everyone else is up to, but what they want, maybe we could rebuild commitment. And with it, I think you just see an upswing in productivity, morale, engagement, innovation, all those things.

Henry Suryawirawan: So I think this kind of distraction, right, social media, marketing campaign, so we all are aware about that danger. And it also seeps to the employment world as well, right? So even when you have started a new job, sometimes you think, oh, maybe this is not the right one. There’s another better job out there. And you keep looking, right? So that kind of like brings you to a lack of commitment.

[00:26:18] Finding the Right Fit

Henry Suryawirawan: It’s a good segue for us to talk about individuals, right? So if we now know that there’s a right fit company for all of us, how shall we prepare ourselves so that we are not being tricked by the marketing campaign or the culture deck, right? So how can individuals start looking for the right fit company?

Andre Martin: You know, throughout the interviews, a lot of the book is based on the insights of talent just like you and me, who have gone through this and have some words of wisdom for us. And one of the things that came up often, I always ask the interviewees, when did you know it was a wrong fit? When did you know you were going to a company that didn’t work the way you worked? And a lot of, you know, what they said was really interesting Henry, they said, if I’m being totally honest, I knew it in the interview. I just chose not to pay attention to it. I chose not to pay attention to information that was going to keep me from taking this job at this cool brand, at this great company for better pay, a bigger title, all those things that we worry about.

And so I think the first thing I would tell talent to do is not to start a job search by looking for jobs. To really start a job search by understanding at a deeper level who you are, what you value, how you like to work, what type of career you’re building, what you’re solving for, for the next 10 years where you want your life to be, and most important, like, what are you solving for right now? And in all the interviews, the one consistent piece of feedback to anyone looking for a job is we got to do more self reflection. Know ourselves and what we’re looking for and then start doing the job search. And if we don’t do that piece of work first, we just get caught in a manipulated environment that you’re not getting version of the truth, so it’s harder to make a good decision.

Henry Suryawirawan: So yeah, I think this part of the book I find is like the so called the best part of your book, right? So you invite people to actually do self reflection. So you’re saying, let’s not start finding the job by looking for the job or the role that you want, right? But start looking internally inside, right? So what are your values, what kind of people you want to work, what are you solving for, right? And sometimes it’s also different for different stages of life. So I think the first thing is about self reflection.

[00:28:31] Fit Excursions

Henry Suryawirawan: So maybe if you don’t mind, let’s go through, I know you have maybe eight, or nine kind of a self reflection questions. Maybe if you can pick some favorites, what are some of these questions that people should ponder about before they look for a new job?

Andre Martin: The first thing I’d say here, and you kind of brought it up is the cool thing about these excursions, is you should do them every year, right? You should do them every time you transition a job. You should do it every time you get a new leader or your company goes through a transformation, because nothing’s static. Our companies aren’t static, the ways of working aren’t static, and who we are isn’t static. So they’re built in a way that says, hey, it’d be really smart to do them once a year, if not more.

A few of my favorites. So the first one is one of the ones I think about a lot personally, which is this excursion that helps you get clear about what you value in big decisions. And so often when you ask someone what they value, they give you the greatest hits. Oh, I value innovation, I value relationships, I value curiosity. And those are probably true. But the real difference in this excursion is I have you think about the big decisions in life first. And then I ask you in those decisions, what were the factors that weighed most heavily on you? And then I have people look at a list of values and have them sort of do a value ladder, which is a foreshore of which values matter.

And the reason I find this exercise compelling is I would love to think about myself as a risk taker. I would love to think of myself as someone who values creativity and innovation. But the truth is, when I look at the big decisions that I make in life, Henry, I value financial security above all else, right. And it comes from, I grew up in a really unstable environment as a kid. My dad wasn’t good with money, didn’t always kind of do the best by the family. So we kind of had this up and down sort of childhood. And I think growing up that way has me hold this value of financial security in every big decision I make. And I think being honest about that helps me think about the jobs and places I join. I’m probably not the startup guy. Too much risk. And so that’s probably why I’ve worked for a lot of these big companies over time. So that’s one that I really like.

Another one that I’m really compelled by is an excursion that has you sort of determine what your career is about. Is your career about company, that is do I love this brand and this product so much that I can’t imagine working anywhere else? Are you of craft, which is, I have this deep expertise or knowledge that I want to be the best in the world at. Or are you a cause where I have a big injustice or problem in the world that I just have to solve? And I think what’s been really compelling about this excursion is, depending on your answer, you create an entirely different career with entirely different choices. And I don’t know that talent really recognizes those trade offs.

I’ll give you an example and then we can move on. I’m a craft person, right? I’ve been about organizational psychology and culture and leadership, and it’s the only thing I care about. It’s everything I’m obsessed by it. If I stayed at one company my whole career, I could never be best in class. Because in order to be great in culture, you have to see a lot of different cultures. And so that means that no matter how much I love the companies I was at, I couldn’t stay. Because there’s no way I could gain the sort of depth of knowledge in that area if I did. And so I had to make some sacrifices and choices around what my career is going to look like.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, so I think company, craft, and cause is also one of my favorite excursion, right? So I think that’s really, really great that you brought it up, so that people can ponder, right? So when you look for a job, do you want to be associated with a good company, right? And hence you probably stay longer there. Or you want to improve your craft or what maybe Daniel Pink says as mastery? Or do you want to work on a cause, right? Maybe it could be poverty, sustainability, or those kind of things, right? So I think that’s really a good question.

And I also love the first thing, the first excursion that you mentioned, right? It’s about knowing yourself in big decisions, because sometimes we think we are, you know, this kind of characteristic. But looking back on all the big decisions that we made, we actually think differently, right? So our thoughts and our actions are totally different. So I think that’s a really good insights as well for people. Look for your big decisions.

I think this excursions to me is one of the great things that people can start doing, maybe, in their current job as well, right? Assess where you are at the moment. Are you in the right fit? And also for the next job. So, I think this is really, really key. Do your self reflection.

[00:33:07] Interviewing and Onboarding + Right Fit

Henry Suryawirawan: So, maybe let’s move on to the next thing that I want to discuss, right? You mentioned that when you interviewed all these people, they kind of like realized that they may go into a wrong fit company in the interview itself, right? So maybe if you can, maybe give some advice, the gotchas that you think people should avoid when they experience this in the interview so that they don’t pick the wrong choice. And sometimes it’s also about, you know, job description, career page, and all those kinds of brand of marketing as well, right? That may lead us to think that this is still the right company for me. So maybe if you can explain that, that would be great.

Andre Martin: Yeah. So Henry, I’ll start with just the experience of interviewing, right? And if you stand back from the process of interviewing for a job, there’s some real interesting elements to it, right? The first one is that as a talent, I show up as the absolute best version of myself. I’ve studied the company. I’ve got all the answers to the interview questions. I’m dressed the best you’ll ever see me dressed in my life. And the same is true for the company. The company’s showing up on their best day, in their best moment. And the thing is when we all show up on our best behavior, it’s not reality.

And I always think about that idea of, hey, if you’ve ever dated, you know this feeling. First dates tend to go really well. But then almost every relationship by the second or third or fourth date, you can’t stand the person. And the same is true for interviewing, so we act like it’s a first date when we’re actually making a commitment that could last a lifetime. It’s like the second biggest commitment we will make behind marriage. I think I saw a stat and it’s in the book that we’ll spend 13.5 full years, every moment, every second, every day of our adult lives at work. It’s second only to sleeping. And yet we make the choice on a really incomplete set of data with only a few touch points when people are on their best behavior. Like how can you ever make a great decision?

And then the other interesting thing, Henry, is that there’s some parts of our brain that get in our way, right? One of them is sort of the biases that we create. And there’s a great bias we talked about earlier called confirmation bias. And confirmations bias is sort of this sense of when we’re motivated to make a certain decision, like wanting to join a company, we will pay more attention to confirming information and less or almost no attention to disconfirming information.

And so I guess my insight to anyone who’s interviewing is first, do the excursions, know yourself really well. Secondly is be really careful of the source of the information and where you’re getting it, right? So we often will hear from recruiters. We’ll talk to our hiring manager. We’ll go through an interviewing process. We might be onsite for a short amount of time. All those are company produced assets. And so make sure you’re balancing what you’re picking up in the interview process with external and objective sources of information. Great one is the employee review sites, right? All those places where employees go and they give reviews of companies. They’re often disgruntled employees. But there’s some patterns and themes that you can see clearly there. Or at least questions you can ask.

I think secondly is annual reports, ESG reports, videos. Most leaders in most companies do videos. And so you can see them interacting, get a sense on who they are and how they show up.

And then I think third is really make sure that you’re using your network. One of my favorite sources of information in an interview process is to find people on LinkedIn that worked for the company I’m interviewing at for a long time, but recently left. And I reach out to them and say, hey, I want to hear about your experience and I want to hear why you left. And most people that have left the company are willing to talk and share the honest feeling that you’re going to have when you work there. So those are a few pieces of advice, but in the book, there’s a ton more.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, I love all your advices, right? Sometimes we didn’t exercise all these options, even though we do have it, like, for example, in your LinkedIn network, find people who have worked in that company. That’s the first thing. Or people who have worked there and left the company. So I think those are really great factual information, I would say. And the other thing that you mentioned, which I find people sometimes not doing in the interview itself, you can ask critical questions, right? Critical questions like how are the best performers in the company doing, right? What kind of values? How do you make big decisions in the company? And things like that.

So I think you can also ask that during the interview, not just like ask shallow questions like what are the technology or what kind of things that people are drawn into day to day and things like that. So I think thanks for all these insights. So when we do an interview, let’s put up more effort so that we don’t choose the wrong fit company, right?

[00:37:52] Buffers + Right Fit

Henry Suryawirawan: So the other section of your book is you mentioned this concept of buffers. I don’t know much what buffer means, but if you can elaborate a little bit more, why do you think buffers is also important for people to choose the right fit company?

Andre Martin: Yeah, it starts here, Henry, is that most companies are growing and changing and shifting and moving and altering the way they work and what they value. And so with that, I think one of the insights from the interview, interviewees is that right fit is pretty tenuous. That means that if you have it, you’re really lucky. And there’s a chance that it might go away. You get a new leader, you change jobs, you go through a big transformation as a company. And so the whole chapter on buffers was really meant to say, hey, if you’re in a right fit experience, there’s things you can do to strengthen and guarantee that that right fit stays. If you’re in a wrong fit or a hard fit experiences, these buffers can make it feel easier, make it better and give you a fighting chance to sort of turn it into right fit. Because the last thing I want for people to do is to say, oh my God, I don’t fit. I should just leave. And it’s like, maybe. But that’s not the only answer.

And so these buffers really give people a set of tools and tricks and tips on how to create a stronger relationship with the company. And there’s two types, right? There’s the inspirational buffers. These things that connect us to meaning and purpose and impact and those things that are sort of higher level. And then there’s a set of relational buffers. So the people we surround ourselves with make a difference in how sort of connected and committed we are to the companies we’re a part of. And so there’s a set of buffers that are about the relationships we have and how we think about them that are helpful for talent to keep right fit or to find it if you don’t have it.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, thanks for elaborating these two types of buffers, the inspirational buffers, things like, you know, like meaningful work, growth opportunities, or maybe the cause that the company is fighting for, right? That those kind of things can also help, even though you think that the way of working probably is a bit frustrating. But yeah, this kind of inspirational buffers to actually motivate you.

[00:40:04] The Role of the Leader & Manager

Henry Suryawirawan: The other aspect is a relational buffer, right? So this is another question related to relational buffer, you mentioned that the impact of a manager is actually very crucial for any kind of company to figure out that that is the right fit company for them, right? Also, we know the saying that people don’t quit their jobs, they quit their managers, right? So manager is really, really important. So tell us a little bit more about the role of the leader or manager in the company.

Andre Martin: Yeah, so I’ll say a couple things to start, Henry, is, you know, in this sort of age of horizontal working or more agile ways of working, I actually think the concept of a manager mattering is shifting slightly, right? So Gallup will tell you 70% of your engagement is dictated by your direct manager. And when I look at the way organizations are set up today, I actually think that management’s more of a collective act. We probably have two or three managers at any given time that are impacting our engagement. And so thinking about not just the person you report to, but the people that you’re doing work for and who they are and what they value and how they come to work.

And, you know, I think that the second part of that is that, hey, we need to start seeing our managers as team leaders. And we also have to realize that as talent, you make your manager, right? The thing that I always hear people say is I don’t have a good manager, so I left. I’m like, hey, haven’t you noticed, but you as a team, you can shape your manager. Like one of the greatest tools we have is positive reinforcement. BF Skinner in my area of psychology sort of started this work of positive reinforcement.

And one of the insights I would give any talent to say, hey, if you want a great manager, make them great. And how do you do that? You do that by first, knowing what you need out of your manager in order for you to be at your best. So who is your ideal leader? What do they value? How do they come to work? How do they support you as an employee? And then be really clear with your manager about what you need. Most managers want to be great. They just don’t know how. And so if you tell them, this is what I need from you, many are going to come towards it.

The other thing you can do is when you see your manager do something that is sort of on your list of things that you need, give them feedback. Not feedback of, hey boss, you did a good job. Give them feedback about the thing that they did. Because the truth is, the higher you go in a company, the less feedback you get. It’s odd, but it’s true. And so anytime someone’s willing to say, hey, in this meeting, when you opened up the meeting and you asked everyone what was the best part of their weekend, that really mattered to me because it made me feel valued. 9 times out of 10, you know what’s going to happen at the next meeting, manager’s going to do that again. And so I think the most important thing about a manager is yes, they will dictate your engagement, but you have the ability to shape them. And so you should try to do that.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah, this is another great insights that I think people should learn, right? So don’t just get resigned to what the type of manager you have, right? You can also make your manager like you said, right? So sometimes, positive reinforcements. Tell them that they are doing the things that you like. And also if there are any kind of feedback, right? Please do give them. So I also realized as you rise through the ranks, right? People tend to probably hesitate when they want to give critical feedback because of fear, you know, hierarchies and performance management and things like that. So I think giving critical feedback is also useful and many leaders actually are looking forward for that, right? Because there’s no better way of learning how to improve rather than the people that you’re working with. So I think that’s really great insights. So thank you for mentioning that we can also make an impact to our managers.

[00:43:46] Company + Right Fit

Henry Suryawirawan: So we’ve been talking a lot from the employee perspective, right? So the people who work. How about the company’s side, right? So what are the responsibilities so that they can create the better right fit culture for talents to come in to them?

Andre Martin: I’d say first and foremost, Henry, you know, companies need to sort of take three steps back, open their eyes really wide and think harder about how we work when we’re at our best, right? And there’s sort of three big categories of work that I believe the company needs to get really clear and authentic about. First is the work principles, right? So these are ground rules or norms that we use to define how work gets done. So I’ll give you one that’s, you know, sort of pithy, but when you think about selling an idea, some people will say, hey, you know, we work in full sentences, not in poetry. That’s a work principle. That’s saying, hey, when you make a pitch, you need to write it out. And so that’s a principle.

And then a work practice is what are the tools and models and assets we use. In technical teams, you use agile and Scrums. In other places, we use certain brainstorming techniques or certain ways to prioritize and set strategy. And I think we need to be really clear about what tools we use in our company. And then last but not least is the work platforms. What are the technology we’re going to use to do work together?

And a couple of just anecdotes I’ll share, Henry. The first was from an interviewee who said, hey, I used to work at a company that was unbelievably gifted at being clear and consistent on how work got done. And her quote, I’ll never forget it. She said, the greatest part about working there is I didn’t have to worry about how to create a deck or a presentation. They gave you the format. I just had to worry about getting my best content in there so I could get folks to see the opportunity I was excited about. And she’s like, the coolest part of that is I didn’t have to put creative energy into building a deck. I could put all my creative energy into my craft, into what I did really well and show how I could help the consumer. And like, that’s just one small example, right? But a really powerful one.

A second one is, you know, I was at a company in my career that we did an audit of all the technology and learning. Just in learning development, not all the technology we use. And we had like 21 LMSes and like 90 different APIs around that technology. And it was because every leader that came in had their favorite LMS. They had their favorite project management technology. They had their favorite way to communicate, whether it’s Slack or Basecamp or whatever it is. And the company just let them all come in.

And so the reason I bring that up, Henry, is because gone are the days where we work in verticals, right? Everything is done on the horizontal. Work is really connected. And if we’re all working from different project management software, think about how hard it is to manage projects. Because every time I’m working with a different leader, I’ve got to put it on a different platform. I’ve got to do it in a different way. And you just end up eating all your productivity and creative energy on the coordination of work.

Henry Suryawirawan: Thanks for sharing these anecdotes. I think those are really, really great to hear, right. So especially what you mentioned, the lady, right. Sharing about, you know, I just need to figure out the best content that I can do. So I think work principles, practices, and also the platforms. So when I read that chapter, I think maybe companies should start putting those in their job description or career page so that people get more insights on what kind of way of working that they are getting into if they join the company, right? So most of the job description is all about the roles, the skills, right? A little bit of values maybe, right? But some are aspirational as well. They don’t tell you the exact way of working that the company is doing. So I think, really thank you for sharing all of that.

[00:47:39] 3 Tech Lead Wisdom

Henry Suryawirawan: So as we reach the end of our conversation, Dr. Andre, I really love this conversation, by the way. I have one last question that I would like to ask you, which I ask to all of my guests, which I called the three technical leadership wisdom. You can think of it just like advice that you want to give to the listeners here. So maybe if you can share your version of three technical leadership wisdom.

Andre Martin: It’s a great question. So, you know, I’ll start kind of small and then sort of get bigger as we go. I think the first lesson I would share is that culture is simply the aggregation of all of our collective behaviors. If you want to change culture, change how you show up every day. It’s really that simple. And if you get five buddies to do it, you can change a team. If you get a hundred people to do it, you can change a department. If you get a thousand people to do it, you can change a company. And so I think just realize that culture isn’t set on high. It’s not written down and then magically happens. It’s just how we decide to show up every day.

I think the second thing I’d say is that, you know, the second piece of feedback is life’s short. It’s impossibly short. And we’re going to spend 13.5 years of our adult life at work. Do your best to get to a place where you can do your best work. It’ll not only serve you becoming better at your craft and having a better career, but you’ll have a better life.

And I would tell you kind of the third piece of advice is when you’re struggling, don’t work harder. Because the only place you’re pulling from is you’re pulling from your life outside of work.

And the best thing the best leaders do is they remember one fundamental truth, is that my first responsibility is to make life outside of work magic. Make it great. Because if life outside of work is great, you know what happens to my job? A, it becomes a smaller part of my identity. And B, there’s an exponentially better chance that I’m happy there. And so those would be the three pieces of advice I’d share tonight.

Henry Suryawirawan: Wow! Really lovely. All of them. So I do love the last one as well. We talked about it as well. So if you feel that you are struggling, right, don’t work harder. Maybe you do more self reflection, maybe you put more investment into other aspects of your life outside of work, right? So working harder is never the solution, right? So I think thanks for sharing that, really beautiful. So Dr. Andre, if people love this conversation, they would want to continue this, or maybe ask you questions, is there a place where they can find you online?

Andre Martin: They sure can. They can find me at LinkedIn. So I’m easy to spot there. My handle on the end of my LinkedIn is docmartinpdx. And the other way you can find me is through websites. So my website’s www.wrongfitrightfit.com. And there you can find my email, you can find my LinkedIn profile, you can even sign up for the newsletter. Goes out about once or twice a month. And then soon we’re going to have some text based courses up there that you can take to kind of learn about these concepts and a little bit more deeply.

So come see me there. And I’m always looking for people to share their stories of right and wrong fit, to tell me about their experiences. Because I just think the more we talk about them, the better they’re going to get.

Henry Suryawirawan: Awesome! So I’ll make sure to share that in the show notes. So Dr. Andre, really pleasure to talk to you today. So really great book. So I encourage people to also at least check out the excursions. To me, those are the gist of the books that people should do, at least to figure out what kind of right fit job that is out there for everyone. So thank you again, Dr. Andre.

Andre Martin: Appreciate you, Henry, and appreciate you creating a space for myself and others to come have this kind of conversation. It’s super important right now.

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