#121 - Developing Creative Identity at Work & Personal Life - Oana Velcu-Laitinen

[00:01:02] Episode Introduction

Henry Suryawirawan: Hello again to you, my listeners. Welcome to the Tech Lead Journal podcast, the show where you can learn about technical leadership and excellence from my conversations with great thought leaders in the tech industry. If this is your first time listening to Tech Lead Journal, don’t forget to subscribe and follow the show on your podcast app and on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. And to support my journey, creating this podcast, subscribe as a patron at techleadjournal.dev/patron.

My guest for today’s episode is Dr. Oana Velcu-Laitinen. Dr. Oana is a NeuroLeadership coach and the author of “How to Develop Your Creative Identity at Work”. In this episode, Dr. Oana shared how we can develop our creative identity at work and in our personal life. She first started by describing the definition of creativity in her book, its relation with intelligence, and explained why creativity is important for maintaining our sense of engagement and motivation. Dr. Oana outlined the four different types of thinking that can help us foster our creative diversity, and shared several tips on how to explore our creativity by channeling our curiosity, choosing our audience, finding time for creative work, and overcoming the fear of rejection. Dr. Oana also shared some potential barriers hindering our creativity at work, and why we should avoid them to foster more creative innovations.

I really enjoyed my conversation with Dr. Oana. And I also shared a few things related to my own creative journey, including how I ended up doing this podcast. If you are someone who are looking to exercise more of your creativity, either at work or at personal life, or even thinking of starting your own creative journey, then you need to listen to this episode, and hopefully it will give you some inspiration.

In the end, if you find this episode useful, please help share it with more people, so they can also benefit from listening to this episode. Also leave this podcast a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It will help me a lot to make this podcast easily discovered by other listeners. Let’s go to the conversation with Dr. Oana after hearing some words from our sponsors.

[00:04:07] Introduction

Henry Suryawirawan: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the new episode of the Tech Lead Journal podcast. Today, we have a slightly different kind of guest in our podcast. Today, I’m very excited to meet Dr. Oana Velcu-Laitinen. She’s actually a neuro leadership coach and a trainer focusing on creative thinking. She recently just published a book titled, “How to Develop Your Creative Identity at Work”. I think these days so many people are disengaged and not happy in work, so maybe if we can channel our creativity at work, we may be able to have that engagement and also meaning in our work. So that’s why I bring Dr. Oana here so that we can discuss a little bit more about creativity, and how we can have more job satisfaction, because that’s one of her motto: to know job satisfaction, we need to know our creativity. So Dr. Oana, thank you so much for this opportunity. Looking forward for the chat.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Hello, Henry. Thank you for having me here.

[00:05:01] Career Journey

Henry Suryawirawan: So Dr. Oana, I always love to ask my guests in the beginning to maybe share about the career journey, specifically on the highlights or any turning points that you want to share with the audience here.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: In my 20 decades of career, I would say that I’ve had two major turning points. The first one was when I was a fresh graduate after my bachelor degree in economics, I realized that I hardly knew anything about computers, and I felt so embarrassed, because I had to collect information and analyze information in Excel, which sounds so rudimentary at the moment. But that’s what I had to do, and I didn’t know how to do it very well. So that’s like 25 years ago. Then I thought that, hey, somehow I had a feeling back then that the future belongs to technology, and I wanted to learn more about it. So, that’s one turning point for me when I decided that I want to understand more about computers. So I applied for a Master’s program here in Helsinki, which combined economics with information systems. It was really fascinating for me to actually learn how to do a bit of programming. I really loved it, but of course I felt that maybe that’s not a path to develop. Yes. I tried it for a couple of years and I was teaching it, because I worked with Master’s students in business. Teaching them how to understand how computers are built and how databases are built, and how databases are connected with the interfaces. So, that was the first major turning point in my career.

But then some years later, the second turning point, which actually brings me here today, is that I felt that it was very interesting, the research that I was doing on how information systems, like ERP systems, are used in companies. But I felt that that’s not my calling. That my calling is something else. The second turning point was when I was lucky to find this interest in the psychology of creativity. That changed entirely my career when I decided to quit my academic life and moved on to do knowledge solopreneurship. And that’s what I’ve been doing maybe for the last seven years. In the last two years, I’ve been focusing maybe 70% of my time on doing independent research. Trying to figure out this field of creativity and writing about it in a more accessible way to people who might benefit from understanding it. So my two major turning points are, first, me wanting to learn more about technology, programming, and computers. And the second one, me falling in love with the psychology of creativity.

[00:07:35] Definition of Creativity

Henry Suryawirawan: So hence, brings you here as well in the Tech Lead Journal, because we have largely the audience from tech industry. I believe there are so many of us here also waiting to channel our creativity. But let’s start with the obvious question. This is probably an open-ended discussion. What do you mean by creativity? For example, myself, I don’t actually categorize myself as creative. I always think creativity is something like someone who can produce beautiful, artistic results. Maybe it’s paintings, maybe drawings or whatever that is or has good eyes for beautiful colors and things like that. And I never associate myself as being a creative person, more like logical person. But in your book, actually you have probably a little bit different definition of what is creativity. So let’s start from there. What do you think is the definition of creativity, maybe for people to get the same context?

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Yes. I was the same like you and probably also our listeners are identifying with the creativity more in the artistic sense of creativity. I take the most standard definition in research, and that is like creativity as a type of thinking. The ability to combine the information that you have and come up with an idea that is like interesting and useful for the people you are working with. So this is the standard way, creativity as a thinking.

But in my book, I take more the definition of creativity as a process, and that’s our process of developing ourselves, developing our ability to create and bring novelty in our professional life. So that’s the focus of creativity on my book. How to develop your understanding of what kind of a creative person you are? And how can you experiment with that identity in the everyday life? So, creativity is more defined from inside out in my book. What do you think of your creativity and how can you use it in your professional life? And like you said, this understanding that we have creativity as an artistic type of talent, like drawing or painting. If you feel that, oh, I don’t resonate with that, then this means that maybe you are going to stay away from all those professional domains where these kinds of skills are needed. But, of course, like I described in my book, there are so many other impulses within ourselves that we can decide to pay attention to and bring them in our professional life. Yes. Maybe we are not very talented drawing people, and we are not going to be like anything to do with design, but maybe we are like very good programmers and maybe we like one particular programming language. That’s what we want to focus on and to develop it into master competence and into some innovative products.

Henry Suryawirawan: So if I may try to summarize. So it’s a type of thinking, right? Trying to first understand about ourselves. And then afterwards, there’s an exploration process to try to bring some kind of novelty. Novelty here doesn’t mean they always have to be out of the box thinking. It could be just novelty in personal life, and at the end, there should be an outcome as a result of that. Which brings like a cycle of creativity, because experimentation and trying to build up something, you know, bring an outcome, may actually come up with something even new, maybe for the world, or it could be just for our personal life.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Yes. That’s a good summary. So creativity as a thinking, and then experimenting different experimentations and that reflected in this outcome of novelty. This novelty can be something for a particular audience. Maybe for some people, they don’t need it, but you have some type of people in your mind when you’re experimenting with your ideas.

[00:11:07] Creativity for Engagement and Motivation

Henry Suryawirawan: There’s one thing that when I read your book, you mentioned that a lot of people will feel a sense of disengagement and hopelessness when they are not able to channel this creativity. And again, coming back to my statement earlier, right? For some people who categorized, I’m not creative, that means I block away a few areas that I could possibly do to channel the creativity. So, what is the relation about channeling creativity and a sense of engagement and hope in our maybe professional life and also personal life?

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Yes. It’s very important to be very aware of how we feel about the work activities we are doing. If it’s hopelessness, we have to develop a new sense of hope. And what does it mean by hope? To start looking around you. To start to be proactive in your environment and create opportunities for yourself where you can try out new activities, or it can mean like learning new skills, or it can mean like, actively reaching out to other colleagues who are doing some projects that might be interesting to you. So being this person who takes, basically, your life in control. That’s basically the underlying idea.

That’s what I also have done when I had this career change. I had this period of trying out my sense of hope by, first of all, like when I left from the academia, going to some coaching programs. And then after ended the coaching programs, I went and I designed my own courses. I learned how to do marketing. I tried, I experimented with different skills. New activities for me is scary stuff. But, you know, like until that point when I got to find my interest in the psychology of creativity and then slowly my sense of hope grew. And then naturally then when you find these types of activities that, you know, you feel this inner motivation, then you know that, okay, I’m starting to be on the right track for me. And you can congratulate yourself for all the effort you made. All that effort to take yourself from the sense of hopelessness to feel that I see no possibility for me in my life to like slowly learning new things, thinking, okay, is this something that it is for me? Maybe yes, maybe no. How can I recycle it? How can I use it in order to get there? Because in each one of us, there are some activities for which we can have an inner sense of motivation.

Henry Suryawirawan: Thanks for sharing your story, Dr. Oana. So a few things that I picked up from what you said just now, the one thing is that we should not be afraid of experimenting. Even though, we try one thing and if it doesn’t bring satisfaction, there may be other things that we could explore. And when we have found that, hopefully, there is some sense of hope and it’ll bring us new energy, a new kind of engagement. So that’s one thing that I picked up.

[00:13:57] Creativity and Intelligence

Henry Suryawirawan: Another thing that I just want to mention as well as part of, again, my research reading your book, is you mentioned in the book that there’s no relation between intelligence and being creative. Because you said that above a certain IQ, maybe in this case around 120, it’s more about personality factors, like it’s your motivation and it’s your wisdom that are more important than intelligence to be able to produce more creative work. So tell us more about this interesting research because some people associate, again, creativity with intelligence. I’m not creative, I’m not intelligent, so I have no hope. So maybe if you can demystify some of this limiting belief.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Yeah, I found very interesting this research where they’re showing that above an IQ of 120, it’s more important to have this inner motivation to learn new skills, what we are talking earlier on, to keep on acquiring knowledge. That’s one aspect of why it helps to get creative ideas, because once you accumulate knowledge from different fields, then it’s more likely that you can come up with an aspect of novelty.

And then the other aspect of motivation is that once you, yourself, have found, for instance, a project that you feel like I’m very motivated on this project, it doesn’t matter that you are not a genius. It just matters that you have the perseverance. Some people call it grit. Some people call it stubbornness. But you have this desire to keep on pushing through the challenges just to see that project completed successfully. So that’s why motivation and wisdom count more, above an IQ, a certain IQ. Because they are helping us to choose what new activities to learn, and also they help us be more productive. And then the more projects you do, the faster you complete them, the more you may get to do that project for which you know you get recognized.

Henry Suryawirawan: So, again, for those of us who have a limiting belief like, for example, I’m not creative, I’m not intelligent. Maybe at a certain point, right? We should not just have that limiting belief all the time. So the two key things that Dr. Oana mentioned is about collecting wisdom. So I’m sure every one of you read books, listen to podcasts like this, and also watch YouTube videos, collecting wisdom, maybe talking to other people as well. But the second aspect is to have personal motivation. So the kind of perseverance, grit to always try to explore, maybe apply the wisdom that you have and create something novel.

[00:16:17] Fear of Rejection

Henry Suryawirawan: Maybe now people are like motivated. They have some inner belief that they can do. So they want to become a creator. So a part of these personal biases that we are not creative, there’s a second aspect that normally stops people from trying to be creative, which is the fear of rejection, or what they create maybe is not perceived as good enough for others. Maybe you have some advice here as well.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Yes. This fear of rejection is like, we all have it because if we take an evolutionary perspective, we human beings developed in small tribe, in small groups. It was very important to be accepted by the other people, and we still carry on with us this fear. And if you just think about, you know, like, take a moment when probably each one of us has been in these meetings when there is silence at one point, and nobody says anything, and you would be tempted to say something. That’s one context where we can check, you know, like how brave are we to actually speak out and just say, “Hey, I think this problem can be solved this way”. So this fear of rejection can keep many of us from trying to move from this place of hopelessness where we find ourselves at the moment. Because we may think that it’s going to be a failure and I’m just going to embarrass myself.

I have to be honest that I also had this fear when I decided to leave from the academia. First of all, I was afraid how I’m going to be judged. Are my former colleagues going to think that I’m not smart enough for leaving the academia? Are my future clients going to think the same that, oh, she just couldn’t be a successful professor? And look at her now, she changed. So, each one of us, depending of what is the professional context that we find, we have certain types of fears about how we are going to be judged by others. That’s, of course, it’s up to each one of us.

But what I’m urging in the book is just to give ourselves the chance. Let’s start maybe in small steps. You don’t have to make this like big career change. But start in small steps there, you know, in the professional role that you have. Try to be, in a way, more like intrapreneurial, as I said a bit earlier, just be proactive, get involved in projects. I know that when you hear get involved in projects, this sounds like, ouch, I’m already so loaded in work. But we have to be very careful also of what are the important things for us? What are the priorities? And the way I see it, and that’s why I wrote the book, the priorities are to save ourselves in the sense that it’s a shame to not to explore this potential, which comes from our creative personality.

[00:18:48] 4 Types of Thinking for Creative Diversity

Henry Suryawirawan: Speaking about having the urge to try experiment, right? You mentioned this in the book as the creative motivation. So for us, who may have a creative blocker, so to speak, right? In our mind, we don’t know what kind of ideas to explore. So you mentioned about four types of thinking here, which are imaginative thinking, curiosity, inspiration, and motivation. So maybe if you can maybe brief us on these types of different thinking so that we can spark new ideas in our head. How can we utilize these four types of thinking?

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: It’s so amazing, Henry, that you picked up on this part from the book, because actually this is a very important part of the book where I talk about opening up to our creative diversity that is in each one of us. We can start by just thinking, when you think about yourself, about your qualities. How would you define? Would you see yourself as an imaginative person?

Like in this case, imaginative, it doesn’t mean that you are like ready to write a science fiction. Are you the kind of person who sometimes looks at what happens in work and you are thinking, “Well, what if we do something else?” So imaginative thinking. Do you see yourself as this kind of person who has ideas? What if we could do something else? So this is one way to open up to our creative diversity.

But then, there is the inspiration way, is the second way. Do you see yourself more like this kind of person who is open up to reading information from different fields? And that you are one of these people that wants to open up to read information from different fields, not only from your domains. This is another way to look for this creative diversity in you, and to make space in your own mind about what new projects you might want to start.

Then the third way is being motivated. Looking at people around you and see who are those people who themselves feel very intrinsically motivated, and that you would want to become like them. So these are three ways through which we can open up to this creative diversity, which will lead us to this moment when you think, okay, these types of projects I want to get involved more with.

And of the curiosity. It’s to be courageous and to think, okay, if I’m curious about something that happens at work, I’m just going to follow it up. I’m going to find that time to understand what other colleagues in what other projects are doing. So, do not because of the excuse that we don’t have enough time, we shouldn’t shut down our curiosity.

[00:21:20] Channeling Curiosity

Henry Suryawirawan: I mean, the always good storyline when we talk about curiosity is that think of us, all of us when we are in childhood. So all of us are curious, we don’t know anything. We try different things. Hence, if you want to look at the true application of creativity is when you look at all the children. They are being creative because of curiosity. I guess, for some adults, we forget that and as we grow and we have a career, we don’t actually explore our curiosity and just do the tasks at hand or things that are in plate.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Yes. Actually, I’m talking about this as one strategy to become more curious. In the book, I recommend that we go back to the childhood and we try to remember what were those activities that we are naturally doing when we are children. For instance, for me, writing was something that I was naturally doing. And then try to bring to the present those activities. What else could you be doing? Like, if for me was writing, when I was a child, I was writing poems, what else could I be doing now in the present? I wrote a book. In the same way with you, what activity did you do as a child?

Henry Suryawirawan: There are a few things that I like. Reading books, and also listening to so-called elder people talking about their experience and their journey. And teaching. So it’s something that I love to do when I was younger as well, maybe in the teenage aspect. So yeah, those are some of the things that I remember on top of my head.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Okay, cool. You are doing any one of this now? Like the teaching, talking to the elderly, I guess?

Henry Suryawirawan: Looking back and connecting the dots. With this podcast, for example, right? I like reading, so that’s why before interview with all the guests, I like to research and try to come up with different topics and ideas, what to ask. And then, yeah, speaking about elderly, I’m not referring you as elderly, but, I guess, people who have wisdom. So I like talking and learn from these kinds of people. And teaching, hopefully, one day I can also channel that again. Maybe one day, I would find the avenue for that, I guess.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: That’s wonderful. So you are the embodiment that it works. This strategy that I talk about and I have tried it on my skin. You also show it that if you bring what you like to do from childhood to now when you are a grownup, an updated version number two, the adult version.

And then there is another way through which we can explore more our curiosity, because also, we may not know what we are curious about now. So another way is to think about what senses we are using. And for instance, some of us can be using a lot of our intellectual abilities. We are sitting in front of the computer typing, thinking in a logical way, watching code, reviewing code. But what other senses could you be using? In your case, if I give you as an example, you are using this ability to communicate with people, to listen to people and to understand their world of view, which, I guess, it could be one path to discovering new curiosities. This is the beauty of human dialogue that you can never know what great idea comes during the dialogue. This is another way to think each one of us can make time, you know, like once per week, every two weeks, to do something else.

It happened that I also was talking in another podcast with a podcaster, and she said exactly the same thing. She realized that all that she does is to talk with people in the academic world and write. And then she was to this festival, where there are like many creative people. Her mind just opened up to so many other activities that she could do to complement her professional activities. And this is enriching. Putting more activities that are complementing our senses. It’s enriching for us. It’s more fuel for creativity.

Henry Suryawirawan: I guess it makes sense. Looking at my journey, although, I mean, to be frank, I don’t start by thinking, what is my childhood curiosity? What are the habits that I had? I actually connected back, connecting the dot, looking back. And yeah, it makes sense that I enjoy what I’m doing now. Speaking about senses, I wasn’t that talkative when I was in childhood as well. I guess what I’m trying to say is that you can explore the senses and maybe, hey, this time you will enjoy it differently than your childhood. So I guess it’s more about exploration, experimenting, and see what gives us energy at this point in time. So, don’t give up saying that you are not good at something. Maybe because you just didn’t find it at the right time. That’s all I’m trying to say.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Exactly. Exactly. At the end of the day, when we feel like we could do so much more, and at the same time we feel that we don’t see what else we could do, there is this aspect of chance of serendipity that somebody from the external environment comes to offer us, “I know a project.” And then we say, “Aha, that’s what I was missing”.

But until the serendipity or luck happens, we have to take within our control and explore these sides of ourselves, like this curiosity and the motivation and the imagination, whatever comes a bit more natural. Because some of us may think that I’m not a daydreamer. I’m not, you know, the kind of person to look around at what happens at work and say, “Hey, what if we do this? What if we do that?” But maybe, as I said, we are the kind of person who like to open up to new information by reading from diverse fields. Or maybe we are the kind of person who wants to be motivated by surrounding yourself with motivated people. Or to be this curious person trying different senses or remembering what we used to do when we were kids.

That’s why I talk about three strategies, actually, to develop the creativity. Because maybe it’s not enough what we did when we were kids and what fascinated us at that time was the result of our environment where we lived. But the most interesting thing is to look at ourselves now in the environment where we are now, and with the mind that we have now, with the wisdom that we have now, with the knowledge that we have now.

Henry Suryawirawan: And with the new motivation that we have as well, right? We get inspired by many people. Maybe it’s from YouTube, maybe it’s from podcasts, maybe it’s from just everyday life.

[00:27:11] Importance of Audience

Henry Suryawirawan: Another important thing that I picked up in your book, which is something worth to discuss as well, because many people may be creative by themselves. They create a lot of the beautiful things, maybe poems, novels, whatever, but they never publish it or maybe don’t share with other people. In your book, actually, you mentioned that without an audience, there’s no purpose to create anything. So tell us why the importance of having this audience in creativity?

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: I personally find it very important, because when you have an audience for which you want to create a product, a gadget or a book or a service, when you have an audience in your mind, it helps you channel your creativity. If we take as an example of me writing this book, if I would have had no audience in my mind, probably it would have been more like a diary type of a book, like me telling my stories. But just because I had an audience, and the audience were the people who are very smart, very capable, and they have a creativity in them. This was my audience, and this challenged me. This gave me the challenge to write the best that I can. So that’s why I think when we want to grow our creative potential, it’s very important to, okay, who is it that I want to create for? This gives also the direction, just to think about the information that you express and to be also like empathetic for your audience and to make the best work that you can. So that’s why creating with the audience in mind is, first of all, developing your creative potential, but at the same time, finding that right balance between the world. What are the needs of the world? What is it that it’s my need to create? It has to be a bit of balance between these two.

Henry Suryawirawan: So, I guess some people may not share with the audience simply because, again, coming back to the first discussion that we have is the fear of rejection. But, again, your point here is that if you have an audience, first, they will challenge you to produce something at best. Maybe it’s not the best perfect version, but at least you will have some motivation to actually produce something that is better, rather than if you just produce it for yourself.

Another important aspect that you mentioned is about direction. So when you have a specific set of audience in mind, that kind of like narrows down the scope of what you need to produce rather than creating it for many different types of people in the world, you can have a specific set of audience and direct your creativity towards them rather than building it for everyone.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: And also, like I was thinking now about in your case with the podcast. How did you choose your audience?

Henry Suryawirawan: Well, it’s a very interesting question because to me it’s very straightforward. I always work in the tech industry. I still love researching about tech, but I want to mix it with leadership. Because I feel that one aspect that is probably not yet explored in details, it’s about how to apply leadership in the technology world or industry. Another part of selfish reason is for me as well to learn, because as part of my role, I need to upskill myself in this area, tech leadership. So that brings me to why I’m doing this podcast.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: I wouldn’t say that it’s a selfish reason in that. Because I think that at the end of the day, any creative process involves the learning of the creator. You develop. You transform yourself. You gain knowledge. Because, of course, all that you learn is going to be used, or maybe not all, but part of it is going to be used for the audience.

Henry Suryawirawan: Thanks for explaining that. Yes, because I, myself, believe that even though I cannot consume all this knowledge, because there are so many of them. Every week I produce one. At least when I share with other people, they will learn something that pick their interest. Doesn’t have to be all episodes, but if people learn something in one episode, I’m personally very happy as well to hear about that.

[00:30:52] Creativity Barriers at Work

Henry Suryawirawan: Which brings us to the next topic. Your title of the book is actually about creativity at work. These days, when I said in the industry, there’s a trend of disengagement. People feel they’re not motivated. So what do you think are the biggest barriers to creativity in work or in teams that you see maybe part of your research or part of your industry research as well?

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: The first barrier, I think, is the interactions between team members. I believe that in order to have a team where people can express their ideas, first of all, ideas about what new projects to take in? Ideas about how to implement a project? In order to have this environment of a fertile exchange of ideas, you need a good communication between team members.

In my opinion, and based on the research and experience that I have, sometimes there are some teams where we have a star performer that can put a bit in shadow the other team members. And how to circumvent that is through expressing more gratitude for the results, for the contribution that each team member makes. Because when other team members feel ignored or they feel that, “You know, why should I bother?” Because there is the best programmer here who does everything, then usually should be the team lead’s responsibility to help bring visibility to everybody’s contribution in the team.

Henry Suryawirawan: I also want to probably bring up other parts of research. Those research says that if you want to be more engaged in work, you have to be given more trust. Some people may refer to this as psychological safety. These days, it’s quite trendy. When you have psychological safety in the team, maybe they are able to express freely what is in their mind, challenge ideas, maybe also propose ideas, and not afraid to try new things. Coming back to trust is that when you are given trust by the leaders that you can do certain things, I guess people will find inner intrinsic motivation to try the best, and probably that’s why the creativity could also be channeled at work.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Yes, that’s true. Trust is the other aspect. And I would say maybe to give the option to choose. To choose what projects you focus on and how you organize your work. That’s how the human brain gets more motivated in social interaction. When you feel that it’s up to you to choose between A and B. Do I choose on task A or do I choose task B? And then when you have this feeling that I chose it, then you are more motivated.

Henry Suryawirawan: Some people refer to it as more autonomy, more outcome driven. You are given the “what”, but the “how” you figure it yourself. And I think there are few phrases in the book that I like, which I quoted, right? So it’s easier to work on projects that your leaders assign to you, for example, but are you actually working on the jobs that match your creativity and the jobs that you like? The other one is imposed goals can decrease self-determination to engage spontaneously in creative action. So I guess the message for all leaders is that sometimes to give room for people, options for people, to actually explore the creative ways of solving a problem. Not necessarily always low level task.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Precisely. It’s a challenge for leaders, but it’s, again, a question of choosing between having an environment where people are low on energy or having an environment where people feel so alive and feel good in their own skin. If I were a leader, I would choose the second.

[00:34:16] Finding Time for Creative Work

Henry Suryawirawan: So, for people who like exploring creativity for their own personal life, for example, for myself, I’m doing this podcast outside of work, so to speak. You mentioned about trying to come up with a creative motivation, or in your book you also mentioned about creative impulses. So maybe having an impulse to always try to create something. So many people these days are overloaded, maybe at work or personal life, so they think they don’t have more energy to spend to be creative. What message or advice would you give to people who think that, yeah, I just don’t have enough time to do this?

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: I would say that once you come up with some project to do on the side, that’s something like with you with the podcast, but that’s something you chose because you are genuinely curious about it, then you get so much more energy. And then you may find yourself being more productive when you go to work. Having this part-time or not part-time side work projects that gives you lots of energy can be this intermediary period of experimenting between that moment of hopelessness and the moment of hope. But it’s like they’re needed to try out and to see what is it that you can actually make it into a sustainable project that you get stable income for.

Then I just wanted to say that I happen to know some people who have spent many years of their life kind of having two types of job. They’re like pay job and this side job. That works also. But what is important is, as I said, the fact that you find a way to get more energy, more inspiration, and to feel more empowered and to feel that you are good at performing something. I think this is very important for us, for human beings and for the people I wrote the book with, that we are the kind of people that we want to feel that I am good at this activity. I chose that activity and I have the right skills for this amount of challenge.

Henry Suryawirawan: And also speaking from my personal experience, you don’t have to start big, I guess. You could always start something small, have an audience of maybe your family member or your friends to start with. But the key is to have the cadence, because the more you create, actually, the more that you will exercise this. And if it really brings you energy, you can actually continue it for long. Like, for example, in this podcast I’ve done two and a half years. If you look back in the beginning, maybe I think I would struggle as well to produce this. But now, looking back two and a half years later, where did the energy come from? I guess, it’s also partly of the motivation and also partly that you enjoy this activity, so that you can continue experimenting and maybe one day, hey, you can reach that point as well. So I think the key message, don’t always start big, try to do small and see.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Exactly. And also like to avoid to have these expectations that like after two years of podcasting, if I don’t get to how many followers or, you know, like not to have these finite results for yourself. Because talking about being creative and seeing possibilities, that’s going to kill the creativity. And then we, again, we are going to discourage ourselves and we are going to think, oh, this hopeless job that I have or role is much better. So just to keep an open mind. I’m focusing one week at a time to organize one episode and one episode, and leave this open door to the unexpected.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah. Speaking about avoiding expectations, actually before I started the podcast, I did a lot of research as well about creative life. So this is one of the key message for me that kind of inspire day-to-day work. The message says that we have to focus on the process of the creation rather than the results. It’s not like the results, the likes, how many listeners or how many people actually clap. I think it’s about the process. Like you find yourself in tune into the activity and you always produce a craft out of it. If the result is good and the people like it, I guess, yeah, you can enjoy the results as well. But to avoid this expectation, I think, is very key because, like you said, right? It can kill our motivation if we think it’s going to go viral, but turns out nobody likes it. So I guess that’s also not a good thing to always hinge on.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Yes. It’s about phases. These results we are talking about, maybe they’re going to make sense a bit later on in our development, in experimenting with different projects. But in the beginning, it is very important to find this sense of like motivation and fulfillment. If I would make a parallel with my own book, for instance, I felt this sense of fulfillment the moment when I saw my book, when I finalized the last manuscript. And then the results came. I moved onto the stage and I wanted to have results when I said, okay, I’m very content with the manuscript, but now I want to find a publisher.

So the result for me came when actually I managed to sign a contract with the publisher. That’s an example that when we are experimenting with different projects where we want to find that sense of what gives us energy, what gives us fuel for our creativity, we have to focus first on being honest and feel, does this feel meaningful for me? When the answer is yes, think, okay, I’m going to find a way to see how this is going to be accepted by my audience. I did have my audience in my mind all the time, except that I was prioritizing more like coming with the ideas, focusing the creating, going with my inspiration, with my intuition. That’s what we have to work hard with ourselves to forget a bit about results, because the results are very important, also how we perform, how others are going to appreciate our work. But yeah, let’s give ourselves a bit of a break from that when we create.

Henry Suryawirawan: Yeah. Again, don’t create too big of an expectation. For example, some people do side projects in the hope of becoming a self entrepreneur. Stop working and do a full-time job on creative work. I guess, for some people, it works, but it is a hard job as well. So don’t forget that creativity also involves a lot of hard work that you have to produce week in, week out, no matter what cadence that you want to do. I think there’s also a hard work behind it. But if you enjoy the process, I guess the result will take care by itself.

[00:40:18] Creative Belief

Henry Suryawirawan: So Dr. Oana, you have done this research when you write the book. Is there any one surprising thing or finding that you had when you do the research? Maybe you can share with us what interesting thing that you find from this research?

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Yes. One thing was that I surprised myself with the perspective that I took on the book. Because in the beginning, I was thinking that I’m going to just write a book about how to stimulate the creative thinking. So, more like from the outside in. I was talking to the reader, and I was telling to the reader how to develop their creativity through different skills. But then I surprised myself when I realized that there’s lots of research done in this style, the outside in style. I’m doing training in that style. But then I decide, no. With the book, I have to go more like to move the perspective of the creativity from inside out. How does it feel to be a person who has underdeveloped creative potential? That was, for me, like this aha moment when I decided I’m going to change gears in research. I’m going to find new research papers that focus on the creative beliefs. What do you believe about your creativity? How do you see yourself as a creative person? So I could say I had two stages in writing the book. The first stage outside in, and then the second stage inside out, which you also could read. So I was just wondering about if you have read some other books on creativity.

Henry Suryawirawan: I was about to say, for me, personally, I always believe about starting from the inside first. Not to do something because of an external motivation, some people say. You have to do it from inner motivation because, first of all, I think that will be more lasting rather than, again, if you have big expectations, external results, and motivation, right? Sometimes when you don’t get that, then you kind of like, oh, I feel so wasted. I don’t know what I’m doing. People don’t understand what I did. But if you always start from yourself, maybe trying to find your strengths, your passion, what brings you energy or just the things that you want to explore, I think that gives the meaning to the self first. If you enjoy it, I guess if the results are also enjoyable for the audience, I think, hey, maybe you have a match. You can continue this exploration. So I believe about inside out approach as well. Thanks for sharing the story of how you also got these insights during your research.

[00:42:36] Tips to Explore Creativity

Henry Suryawirawan: Maybe if you can give tips for listeners here who want to start. Now, they are motivated, I guess, like I want to be more creative. Are there a certain tips or advice or insights that you want to welcome them to try in their lives?

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Yes. The first insight is not to be afraid to step out of the comfort zone. It feels uncomfortable. That’s true. But it can also be rewarding. What does it mean to step outside the comfort zone is to actually be active. We keep on getting back to this, like how to use our time? And be active in using our time to seek out for new people, to step outside the professional sphere. Just looking at what happens in your town? What kind of outside work networking happens there? And just try it out. For instance, I’ve been trying out in the last month with this public speaking club, ToastMasters. It’s another experiment of stepping outside of the comfort zone. I would say that it should be a habit stepping outside of the comfort zone. I’ve been doing that ever since I decided to go on solopreneurship. So this is one thing that I would advise.

Another thing is getting back to paying attention to what happens inside us. There are some sensitivities in us. It can be that when we are going from home to work or going for a walk or going to the shop or meeting a friend, we feel something inside, something happens, something touches us. Well, for instance, we can read like a post at the cafeteria announcing something happening in town. And if that resonates with you, please stop and make time for it. Okay, this seems to be interesting. How can I develop it? How can I follow it? This is actually what happened to me seven years ago when I was walking in town here in Helsinki with my son. My son was a baby at that time. I was pushing the pram, and I passed by this library, where they had on the window, a notice. The notice was saying that here we are welcoming spirituality courses for all the people from all walks of life. And then I was like, wow, that’s very interesting. I’m not interested in organizing a spirituality course, but I’m going to organize my first course on how to choose happiness in your life.

I felt something strong when I saw that notice and I decided to follow it. And I went home, and I started doing research on happiness. That’s another domain of knowledge that I’m passionate about, and it doesn’t sound so easy as you may think. So I ended up with a course and I ended up with organizing this course for maybe more than six months. And I met so many interesting people starting from this feeling that, wow, this is interesting. So these two things I would encourage our listeners in order to find their inner motivation for a particular activity. First, try to make a habit out of stepping outside of the comfort zone. And then pay attention at what touches you when you seemingly do nothing important. Just like moving from one place to another.

Henry Suryawirawan: Wow. Thanks for sharing the beautiful story. Coincidentally, actually, it happened to me as well before starting this podcast. I was taking a walk. I normally take a walk in the evening, and I listen to podcasts almost all the time, during that time. I got inspired by all these podcasters. Then one day, it just sparked my mind, Hey, is there any tech podcast from this region? When I searched, there was none. Okay, maybe I could start one. So it’s just like a random wild idea. For me, I kept thinking about that the night after, the day after. Why don’t I just try? And yeah, actually it happened the same way.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: I like a lot what you said, because it’s very important that you kept thinking about it. This is a sign. That’s a sensitivity that we need to follow. That’s a tiny idea that we need to develop. The fact that you keep on thinking about it.

Henry Suryawirawan: Thanks for that. So the key thing for me that I took out just now is that always have a habit of stepping out. It could be taking a walk, maybe a shower as well, right? Some people say you can get new ideas when you shower. Or just random, you know, in the cafe when you look at a post or maybe signs that inspire you.

The next thing that is very important is when it inspires you, stop and take notice, pay attention. Maybe there’s an idea. Keep it in the notes, I guess. Some people mention about keeping all these notes ready so that you can just keep it down and maybe you don’t forget. And one day, if you keep thinking of it, you can go back and explore. I think that’s a really beautiful message.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Yes. And try to do something about it also. Take it like a project that you want to develop a prototype for. And try to, you know, like you said, you did research about the tech podcast in the area, and then think about how would you do it? If there is none, how would I do it? Who I would invite? Takes small steps to actually make it a real project.

I met once a person who was such an imaginative person. She was telling that she spends lots of time during her day daydreaming, but she never did anything about those daydreams. That’s why I would urge action. You feel something, you notice something, you get an idea that triggers your sensitivity, just try to develop it a bit.

Henry Suryawirawan: Wow. I think another beautiful message, because some people say, I mean, parents sometimes, “Don’t daydream”, right? Because it’s a waste of time. But to me, daydream is important, sometimes. It could spark maybe wild ideas, yes, but sometimes it could turn out into something concrete. So I think don’t judge yourself when you daydream. I think it’s also a channel for you to be creative.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Certainly, Certainly. I mean, as I said in the beginning, some of us are natural at imaginative thinking, at daydreaming, and if your mind is wired that way, go for it.

[00:48:10] 3 Tech Lead Wisdom

Henry Suryawirawan: I think for some people, I, myself, get inspired, right? For some people who listen to this, they may also get inspired. But unfortunately, Dr. Oana, we have to end our conversation due to time. But I have one last question. This is what I called 3 tech leadership wisdom. It doesn’t have to be tech related, so you can think of it like creative leadership wisdom, I guess. So if you can maybe share with us, what will be your 3 wisdom to share with the audience here?

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Wow. That’s great. I would just say like leadership wisdom from the scientific world. That’s where I have been experienced more with. So the first one is like walk the talk. If you are a leader with some values, and you have that expectation from your people, then just be the one who walks the talk. Like for instance, if you are the leader who says that we have a flat culture here in the team, just show yourself, go to the cafeteria, talk with your team members, make yourself approachable. Make yourself relatable. So that’s the first thing. Walk the talk.

And then, I would say, talking about values. One thing would be to think about what kind of leader you are and what are your goals with your team. If we talk about creativity and helping people feel good at what they do, I would say to be more this kind of selfless leader. The kind of leader who wakes up in the morning and says, “How can I make the life of my people easier?”

The third leadership wisdom is to keep up the ability to ask questions. Try to be the one who shows how it is to be curious. Like, how can we do this? What is it that we are not seeing? What new information do we need? And not to be afraid to show to the team members that you are not a know it all, but you are a curious person.

Henry Suryawirawan: I really love the second one, actually. So, as a leader, sometimes we wake up on the bed, in the morning. We always think about, okay, what goals that we can move the post this time? What kind of results can we achieve? But you actually remind a very good message, what kind of things that we can do to help others' lives better or easier, so to speak. I think, again, at the end of the day, leadership is about people, right? It’s not about just achieving results.

So thanks Dr. Oana for this wonderful conversation. So if people love this conversation, they want to find more about you or just talk, is there a place they can reach out online?

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: This place is my LinkedIn profile. If you look for me on LinkedIn, Oana Velcu-Laitinen, or just drop me an email, Oana@Velcu.Fi. These two, LinkedIn or email, are the easiest way. And if you want to know more about what I do professionally, you can go to my website, Velcu.Fi. And there, you can see some of the trainings that I have designed during all these years. I’m very open talking about stepping outside the comfort zone. I’m very open to talk with people and I’m curious to hear about people’s stories and experiences.

Henry Suryawirawan: I’ll make sure to put all those in the show notes. So thank you again for this wonderful creativity related conversation. I hope it inspires some of you listeners who want to also explore about your creative journey. So I hope something sparks you today, and you can take action and do something out of your curiosity.

Oana Velcu-Laitinen: Thank you so very much, Henry. It was very interesting. If I would make a summary, it would be like, don’t give up on your inner motivation and be ready to have new habits to take action.

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